Tradition is Winning
#21
(04-13-2014, 10:34 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: (snip)

And also, I don't know if this is any rule, but trads just don't seem to evangelize, not Protestant and not other Catholics (and what better way to evangelize than the right worship of the living God? After all, Jesus redeemed us not just to be free from sin, but to worship God); maybe this is because I live in a “catholic” country and because they think the NO is just OK. But really, its not. Of course, God is so powerful that He can still make something valid out of those obnoxious guitar masses, but one is not getting the fullness of the Church, of the life in Christ, in those masses.

Grab this free booklet for your Kindle (or use it as a PDF on your laptop or tablet or whatever), grab a KJV of the Bible, grab a Prot, and commence to converting!: http://www.fisheaters.com/freebook.html

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#22
(04-13-2014, 07:13 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(04-13-2014, 06:46 PM)John64 Wrote: A big problem I notice is for those of us who are new to the TLM and want to learn more is that where I attend the TLM I have gotten cold stares and dirty looks and cold responses to questions, even the priest I talked to seemed unfriendly. If it weren't for this site I'd still have a lot of questions. I think there are some out there that think its an exclusive club only and won't help anybody that is new. If it were me I'd go out of my way to help anybody new out.  To me me the TLM is for rich or poor, blue collar or white collar, educated and uneducated. I think its really sad that this happens but it does. This needs to be fixed for memberships to grow. It didn't stop me but some would be really turned off. The NO parish I go to when I can't get there to is way more freindly and open to strangers. I would like to add that I'm not judging all Trads to be this way but I've run into a lot who are.

"[ T ]he TLM is for rich or poor, blue collar or white collar, educated and uneducated" -- amen, brother. And for white people, black people, Asian people, homosexual people, high school drop-outs, folks with doctorates, single mothers, prostitutes -- everyone is called, and any trad who thinks otherwise, who isn't welcoming (or, if he's shy, isn't at least neutral in his demeanor toward others) is doing Christ Himself a great disservice. No, that person is wounding His very Heart

What you've experienced is, I think, relatively rare "in real life" (at least I pray so!), but I know that online some -- too many -- trads can come off like big jerks.  And that is one thing I am VERY out to change -- by posting about that problem and by having stuff like this on the FE site itself:

Toxic Trads:
http://www.fisheaters.com/abouttheforum.html#radtrad

Conversion of the Heart:
http://www.fisheaters.com/conversionoftheheart.html

Whatever you do, pleeeeeeeeeeease don't let the bastards get you down. Be there for Christ in spite of some of those who claim to follow Him but don't let it show in their lives. I imagine you know that the traditional form of worship is, in se, more reverent, better in terms of catechesis, and, because of all the prayers left out of the NO, undoubtedly more pleasing to God. So think of Him during all these hardships you're having with cold, steely-eyed pew-mates.

Further, BE the change you want to see. If you want a friendly, warm parish, BE the person who is friendly and warm to others. I know it's harder to do that if you're "the new guy there," but do it anyway if it is at all possible for you emotionally. LEAD. Take it upon yourself to set an example! "Ask not what your parish can do for you; ask what you can do for your parish!" LOL  Ha, I laugh, but am actually very serious. Sometimes it just takes someone to break the ice, to knock down a few barriers, to do things to change the "tone" of a place.

In the meanwhile, ask anything you want here and we'll try to get you answers! That's part of what this place is for :)

I'm curious about what sort of TLM you attend. Is it diocesan, FSSP, ICK, SSPX, sede...?



Thank you Vox for your kind words and believe me you have done very very well with this site and I owe a lot to it, I was one of the ones who wrote you not to ever close it and you have done fantastic cleaning up these boards. Please keep this site running , its very important.
I attend a diocesan TLM which is the closest to me......I would like to also add that despite my bad experience with some of the congregation there that this parish has been around a very long time and I have spoken to some members on the phone who were very kind and very dedicated to preserving the community, they do a beautiful job with the TLM and are in constant battle with the diocese. They are like warriors fighting to preserve this community, If I ever get a chance I should probably tell some of the leaders of this community of my experience, it may help.....I used to belong there but Its so hard to pay for the gas on my budget. I go to high Mass around once a month and joined a local NO parish.  Like Tim was I'm an honorary member of the LiveMass.net community.  Thank God for Father Fryar and the beautiful work he has done with LiveMass and the FSSP,  I don't let others get to me or stop me from going, I just mind my business and enjoy the beautiful TLM they have there....they do a fantastic job there. This is too important to me than to let a few sour faces chase me from it. 

 I watched Father Fryars farewell video on Youtube to his former parish and in it he warned of not letting spiritual pride take over the parish and to be warm and friendly plus I've seen Alice Von Hildabrand warn of this very thing before.

Go to the 32 minute mark in this video to see Father Fryars warning. This is a great warning and act of love to his former parish.

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#23
Cheers Vox, that will be helpful.
Indeed its been some time I'm writing a kind of treatise explaining why after a brief period of apostasy looking in Orthodoxy and Protestantism, I 'decided' to stay in the tradition of my family, Catholicism. A sort of Apologia pro vita sua, that is meant to show how the truth is realized in one's particular life, and of course, in the course I'll have to present the truth in general. Then I'll send to my Protestant and Orthodox friends.
This is my initial plan, at least, and even though its taking quite a while, I think that it will be somewhat fruitful among my closest friends.
But this sort of thing only works with people you already know, and that you know will consider reading long texts.
What I mean when I say trads just don't seem to evangelize is that you actually have to look quite hard to find a parish that has TLM (the one I go the TLM is not even listed among the masses they offer, so I only discovered it by accident when I stayed a bit late after Vespers – imagine my delight, after accepting I was doomed to live in the NO world that albeit it is said with reverence and with chants in Latin, etc., its just not the same thing). But yes, I think people will not invite you to go to a TLM or go out of their way to evangelize the non religious. And again, maybe this is a particularity of where I live.


AntoniusMaximus,
I have no idea of how to accomplish that successfully. I think it can be done in cities, but the model will have to vary from city to city. For instance, I live in a big city in which the neighborhoods are themselves very big, so there is no self contained areas in the traditional way (this is quite different from, for instance, the European cities, that are quite small), and that could make it difficult to have a physical local area where we would have such a community. In this case the community would have to be glued in some other way.
Another thing important is to have some institution that will act as the interface between the community and the outside world, like the (benedictine) monasteries were in late antiquity, maybe a college – though it would have to be a very independent college if it is to teach the classical Christian humanism, the liberal arts, and sciences in a Christian sense (this requires intelligent folks that can in a sensible manner reject Cartesianism, and maybe formulate the sciences in, say, a Thomistic way, if that can be done); and this could be done in the US with a bit of money, where, from what I understand, you guys have more liberties regarding universities – but also could be some institution that comprises the families, etc. Again, I wouldn't know how to do it.
But anyway, yes, there would be need for money, and for that I guess people would have to lose their fear of secular universities (or secular people in general, after all, we have the best guys on our side).
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#24
(04-13-2014, 06:46 PM)John64 Wrote: A big problem I notice is for those of us who are new to the TLM and want to learn more is that where I attend the TLM I have gotten cold stares and dirty looks and cold responses to questions, even the priest I talked to seemed unfriendly. If it weren't for this site I'd still have a lot of questions. I think there are some out there that think its an exclusive club only and won't help anybody that is new. If it were me I'd go out of my way to help anybody new out.  To me me the TLM is for rich or poor, blue collar or white collar, educated and uneducated. I think its really sad that this happens but it does. This needs to be fixed for memberships to grow. It didn't stop me but some would be really turned off. The NO parish I go to when I can't get there to is way more freindly and open to strangers. I would like to add that I'm not judging all Trads to be this way but I've run into a lot who are.

Go to the TLM for Christ, not for socialization.
That is one of the modern errors, that Church is about community - it isn't - it's about the objective worship of God.

Once you go to mass to offer your sacrifices with Christ in living the demands of the moral life, eventually people will warm up to you and before you know it, you will be the one giving newbies dirty looks too! :)
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#25
(04-14-2014, 04:42 PM)winoblue1 Wrote:
(04-13-2014, 06:46 PM)John64 Wrote: A big problem I notice is for those of us who are new to the TLM and want to learn more is that where I attend the TLM I have gotten cold stares and dirty looks and cold responses to questions, even the priest I talked to seemed unfriendly. If it weren't for this site I'd still have a lot of questions. I think there are some out there that think its an exclusive club only and won't help anybody that is new. If it were me I'd go out of my way to help anybody new out.  To me me the TLM is for rich or poor, blue collar or white collar, educated and uneducated. I think its really sad that this happens but it does. This needs to be fixed for memberships to grow. It didn't stop me but some would be really turned off. The NO parish I go to when I can't get there to is way more freindly and open to strangers. I would like to add that I'm not judging all Trads to be this way but I've run into a lot who are.

Go to the TLM for Christ, not for socialization.
That is one of the modern errors, that Church is about community - it isn't - it's about the objective worship of God.

Once you go to mass to offer your sacrifices with Christ in living the demands of the moral life, eventually people will warm up to you and before you know it, you will be the one giving newbies dirty looks too! :)

Call me crazy John64 but I think you've described a void and an excellent solution to fill that void. Perhaps that is where you're supposed to be and why you're supposed to be there. I'm not saying that's a definitive answer but something for you to think about. Learn about tradition here at FE and help those newbies, like yourself, at your Church.

Also, the comment that winoblue1 made is relevent and that's where Catholics differ from Protestants. Protestants go to Church for the socialization, service, message, music or all of those things. When a Church doesn't meet their desires they Church shop. Catholics go to Church to worship God.
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#26
Anyone who thinks that Tradition is winning has only to watch from 2:33:00 on...
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#27
(04-14-2014, 05:42 PM)CaptCrunch73 Wrote:
(04-14-2014, 04:42 PM)winoblue1 Wrote:
(04-13-2014, 06:46 PM)John64 Wrote: A big problem I notice is for those of us who are new to the TLM and want to learn more is that where I attend the TLM I have gotten cold stares and dirty looks and cold responses to questions, even the priest I talked to seemed unfriendly. If it weren't for this site I'd still have a lot of questions. I think there are some out there that think its an exclusive club only and won't help anybody that is new. If it were me I'd go out of my way to help anybody new out.  To me me the TLM is for rich or poor, blue collar or white collar, educated and uneducated. I think its really sad that this happens but it does. This needs to be fixed for memberships to grow. It didn't stop me but some would be really turned off. The NO parish I go to when I can't get there to is way more freindly and open to strangers. I would like to add that I'm not judging all Trads to be this way but I've run into a lot who are.

Go to the TLM for Christ, not for socialization.
That is one of the modern errors, that Church is about community - it isn't - it's about the objective worship of God.

Once you go to mass to offer your sacrifices with Christ in living the demands of the moral life, eventually people will warm up to you and before you know it, you will be the one giving newbies dirty looks too! :)

Call me crazy John64 but I think you've described a void and an excellent solution to fill that void. Perhaps that is where you're supposed to be and why you're supposed to be there. I'm not saying that's a definitive answer but something for you to think about. Learn about tradition here at FE and help those newbies, like yourself, at your Church.

Also, the comment that winoblue1 made is relevent and that's where Catholics differ from Protestants. Protestants go to Church for the socialization, service, message, music or all of those things. When a Church doesn't meet their desires they Church shop. Catholics go to Church to worship God.

I don't go to church for socialization thats why I travel so far to the TLM and make use of LiveMass in my living room on Sundays I can't make the trip. If I was there for that only I could just go to the NO parish here, the people are very warm and nice. I by nature am a loner and really don't need to be socially accepted to attend a church. The reason I point the things out I say is I have had some unpleasant experiences at this parish even the very first time I attended a Latin Mass ever was here and I asked someone (an older gentleman) in the vestibule about the missal booklets for visitors and how to use them and got a dirty look and a grunt for an answer with no help whatsoever, I've had similar instances several other times over the years to the point I don't even try talking to anybody there. I could tell you many other stories. I am not trying to come across as someone who needs fellowship or community but merely pointing out that if the TLM is to grow not only in how many are said but in size of parishoiners attending and if this is how some parishes are elswhere too its not going to happen to fast. If I was not single but had a family and I decided I wanted to start going to the parish I go to and got a negative response more than one time I think most families would not go back and look elsewhere. 

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#28

The Mass is about God, but the Church is about God and community and evangelizing and the works of mercy and religious orders and all manner of good thing. There's no need for any false dichotomies -- either we have a God-centered Mass AND no community, OR we have Clown Masses AND community. We can have God-centered Masses and community, and the Church always had had that. At the center of every European village was a church, with cathedrals at the centers of the big cities. People's lives were centered around those churches and cathedrals. There was no dichotomy at all. And community is especially important now because of the messed-upped-ness of modern life. People are lost; they NEED community.

Winoblue1 Wrote:Once you go to mass to offer your sacrifices with Christ in living the demands of the moral life, eventually people will warm up to you and before you know it, you will be the one giving newbies dirty looks too!

I know you (or assume) were just making a joke, but God forbid! LOL

 
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#29
(04-14-2014, 05:48 PM)Miserere_Nobis Wrote: Anyone who thinks that Tradition is winning has only to watch from 2:33:00 on...

Whether or not tradition is winning at this specific moment in time is irrelevant. Tradition is the only thing that will survive. How that will occur is another matter but that is out of our control anyway.
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#30
(04-13-2014, 08:34 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(04-13-2014, 07:47 PM)CatholicSteve21 Wrote: One thing I remember that Tim said (may he rest in peace) and its something that has really stuck with me, is the Church seems divided, the NO's has the charity, and the TLM's have the rules and faith. Its' really sad that it's that way, I just wonder why, even VII called for Latin to be retained in the Liturgy,  as far as I've read, I've not seen anything in VII thats contrary to the faith, if its read in the light of tradition. I just wonder why...


Pax

You want to hear the scary part? Charity is "the better part." We trads are right in believing what we believe, in wanting a restoration of the traditional sacramental rites and ancient devotions, wanting the traditional teachings of the Church handed down intact, etc., but if we are 100% right about it and don't have charity, we're going to Hell in spite of our brilliant minds.

My take on the "toxic trad" phenomenon, which is what we're talking about here, is that traditional Catholicism attracts intellectuals. Unless a person is born into it or is aesthetically sensitive, what brings people to Tradition is a consciousness of what's been going on since the Council, what's been lost, how authentic teaching has been twisted. And becoming conscious of all that requires some modicum of intelligence and curiosity. But there's a relatively big sub-set of the "intellectual type" who are flat out emotionally retarded, to be blunt about it. They're like this high IQ kid I remember seeing on the old Johnny Carson show when I was a kid myself -- some girl who did something unusual, like maybe graduating from college at age 13 or whatever:  she scoffed at the idea of going to her graduation ceremony because it was a ridiculous thing that would entail her wearing a cardboard hat. They're the type who break things down in a Spockian way without the Spockian charm or sense of humor and warmth we all know is lurking underneath that Vulcan exterior. That girl, for ex., whether she realized it or not, just basically called all her classmates ridiculous fools. And she likely had no idea that she did so. She was unable to see the importance of such (albeit secular) ritual in spite of the, yes, cardboard hats. She was robotic. And there's a lot of that "roboticism" (relatively speaking) in the trad world because of the fact that Tradition is now something one, generally speaking, has to have some sort of intellect to even know exists.  Back in the day when Tradition just was and everyone was on the same page, that sort of intellectual coldness wasn't what typified the folks in the pews. Back in the day, the hairdressers, plumbers, doctors, lawyers, and hod-carriers all had the same Mass, the same teachings, and there was no need for anyone to go to some little cranny of the world to find the Truth, there was no great Truth out there that was being kept away from them  -- and, so, there was nothing anyone had to "lord" over another. Modern trads need to remember that fact.

Throw in an over-reaction to the nasty ugliness of the modern world, resulting in anger and bitterness, and throw in backlashing against radical feminism by displacing the rage onto "women," and then add a twist of anger at what the homosexualist activists are doing getting morphed into talking smack about all homosexuals ("sods," etc.), and you get -- the classic Toxic Trad.

They need a conversion of the heart, to not treat the Faith like a philosophy only they are brilliant enough to have discovered. They're sort of "gnostic" in that sense sometimes (using that term very loosely). I'll fight that stuff as long as this site's up.


Wow, thats really thought out, and right too, its the intellectual side and my love of almost anything medieval that attracted me to tradition in the first place, but, as I've grown more in the faith (Deo Gratias) its more than that. The exteriors, they have this interior effect I find hard to explain.  But, as you said and as Holy Writ say's
  "If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."


Pax!
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