John Martignoni's apprach (applied to the Latin Mass)
#1
I don't know how many people in here are familiar with John Martignoni from EWTN and http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/

He has a specific approach to debating with Protestants over biblical interpretation which is one of my favorites and is pretty effective. He basically takes an approach of asking questions with questions rather than directly answering those questions. He basically has 5 fundamental aspects to his approach.

1) The ignorant Catholic approach (Telling the protestant that you are debating) You know I as a Catholic don't know that much about the bible and I really like this Jesus thing and am open to the truth. Would you help me find this truth? Then you basically open yourself up for a conversation and you start evangelizing protestants through this method.

2) Once the conversation starts you start what John Martignoni calls the being offensive without being Offensive. (basically you answer questions with questions) while not trying to sound rude or offensive. For example if a protestant asks you why as a Catholic you don't believe in faith alone. Instead of jumping right out and giving an answer you answer that question by asking another question. (Well were in the bible does it say we are saved by faith alone?)

There are 3 other principles that John Martignoni describes but I will not get into them
you can here the talk in http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/dow...lenged.mp3

Rather I got the idea that it might not be a bad thing to extend these principles that John Martignoni talks about in debating protestants on biblical verses, but rather extend these principles to the extent that we can on debates with Catholics over the Latin Mass.

We could do these by using the offensive without being offensive 2nd principle talked about above. Asking questions with questions. This also means phrasing the arguments for the Latin Mass in a truthful way, but also in a way that is prudential and based on Charity.

For example we could say this "You know I have been going to the Latin Mass also known as the Extraordinary form and which I like to call by the proper name the Tridentine Mass. I have been going pretty frequently over the last several months. I have noticed that there is a theological significance in this form of the Mass. In other words I would even say that there is a lot clearer theological concepts in this particular way that Mass is celebrated. This includes the priest facing the East (Ad Orientem worship) and the various gestures by the priest in this form of the Mass. Namely the various times that the priest crosses himself throughout the Mass. I was wondering what you think about this?)

This type of approach in my opinion will make it easier for people to have conversations with you over the Latin Mass and might even get people interested in the Mass.

What do you guys think?
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#2

I think any approach that doesn't put people on the defensive, allows them to save face, has your ego out of the way, gets them to come up with the answers themselves wherever possible, is offered in charity and, so, involves actually listening to the other and understanding who he is, where he's coming from, and how he uses language is the best way. 

What you've outlined sounds very non-threatening, so that's nice. I take exception, though, to the line, "I as a Catholic don't know that much about the Bible." I mean, it's our Bible but that line gives off the idea that "the Bible's a Prot thing." Further, it feeds into the stereotype of Catholics not reading Scripture -- which isn't (necessarily) true (shouldn't be true if it were, anyway).
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#3
(04-30-2014, 12:19 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: I think any approach that doesn't put people on the defensive, allows them to save face, has your ego out of the way, gets them to come up with the answers themselves wherever possible, is offered in charity and, so, involves actually listening to the other and understanding who he is, where he's coming from, and how he uses language is the best way. 

What you've outlined sounds very non-threatening, so that's nice. I take exception, though, to the line, "I as a Catholic don't know that much about the Bible." I mean, it's our Bible but that line gives off the idea that "the Bible's a Prot thing." Further, it feeds into the stereotype of Catholics not reading Scripture -- which isn't (necessarily) true (shouldn't be true if it were, anyway).

Yes I was pretty much trying to show a non-threatening type of means of confronting people regarding traditional Catholic spirituality including the Mass. I think as Catholics we should have the patron saints of Saint Thomas Aquinas (For Truth) and Saint Francis of Sales (For Charity) many times I believe we divorce one from another. As Venerable Fulton Sheen says when we divorce truth from love our love will be superficial at best (the spiritual but not religious types). When we divorce love/charity from truth it is not any different than a Pharisaic type of legalism.

As far as ignorant of scripture approach (The I don't know much about the bible) I get what you mean. The bible truly is a Catholic book, I think though  that John Martignoni was simply meaning that when debating scripture with protestants we might as well say the Catholic stereotype of "biblical ignorance" yet by asking the questions with more questions and pointing them to bible verses that contradict their fallible and wrong beliefs then we prove that this stereotype is most definitely wrong.
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#4
I like it as well. I think it is far more important to have these kinds of talks with Catholics than to debate with Protestants. We can always ask questions. And we can always learn. So when last I had a little argument with a friend over the issue of liturgy, we ended up with a few key questions, and the resolve to each come up with some readings, which we will then go through and that should lead us somewhere, I hope! :LOL:
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