Pope Paul VI to be Beatified in October
#21
OK, I am going to test this out.
I am going to ask Paul VI for a specific miracle for the next 30 days. Can't say what! But I will let you know what I see in 30 days!
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#22
(05-06-2014, 07:24 PM)maldon Wrote: OK, I am going to test this out.
I am going to ask Paul VI for a specific miracle for the next 30 days. Can't say what! But I will let you know what I see in 30 days!

You should not put God to the test.  :shame:
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#23
I can understand why various traditionalists give a lot of heat to Pope Paul VI when it comes to the promulgation of the New Mass.

However If I am not mistaken Pope Paul VI actually came out with some pretty good encyclicals including Humanae Vitae, Memoriali Domini (which as far as I know actually discouraged communion in the hand) and some others such as Myerium Fidei.

Other than that I am afraid I don't know much about his pontificate
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#24
(05-06-2014, 06:33 PM)ArturoOrtiz Wrote: If and when Pope Paul Vi is canonized I will accept the Church's decision

Not to put you on the spot-- but is there anyone whose canonization you would not be able to accept?  I just can't imagine accepting Paul VI's...

I guess I just feel like we should have enough certainty in the Church, at least about some things, to say, "No.  X can never happen.  That's what infallibility cum indefectibility means."  If we can't, I feel like something is horribly, terribly wrong.
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#25
(05-06-2014, 08:09 PM)JuniorCouncilor Wrote: Not to put you on the spot-- but is there anyone whose canonization you would not be able to accept?  I just can't imagine accepting Paul VI's...

That's a good (uncomfortable) question.  I too will accept Pope Paul's canonization if it happens.  If I can accept St. J23's and St. JP2's, I can accept Pope Paul's as well.  In all cases, these are (or would be) "political" moves, intended to "canonize" the more worldly post-V2 orientation -- to make dogma of something that is not and can never be dogmatic.  The canonizations are permitted by The Holy Ghost because the men in question are in heaven so our prayers to them will not be in vain. 

I think there are limits to what I could accept.  I don't know where those limits are, precisely; I didn't think much about SS. J23 and JP2 until the canonizations actually happened.  Oh, I know:  a non-Catholic "saint".  Say, if the Pope tried to canonize Luther.  That's so outrageous I can't believe I just wrote that, but I can almost imagine it....  Ugh, I feel physically sick....
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#26
(05-06-2014, 08:09 PM)JuniorCouncilor Wrote:
(05-06-2014, 06:33 PM)ArturoOrtiz Wrote: If and when Pope Paul Vi is canonized I will accept the Church's decision

Not to put you on the spot-- but is there anyone whose canonization you would not be able to accept?  I just can't imagine accepting Paul VI's...

I guess I just feel like we should have enough certainty in the Church, at least about some things, to say, "No.  X can never happen.  That's what infallibility cum indefectibility means."  If we can't, I feel like something is horribly, terribly wrong.

I wonder if I can chime in. Is not a saint, someone who is in Heaven? and theoretically, is it not true that one who lived a very deplorable life could receive forgiveness and absolution, die, go through the sufferings of Purgatory and come out a saint?

Therefore is it not hard to believe that even a heretic like Martin Luther could be in Heaven if he made a perfect act of contrition and thus be technically a saint?


I'm not saying anything other than hypothetical. I do hope Paul VI is in Heaven, but I certainly don't think it's wise or prudent to be bum-rushing his canonization to hold him up as a model of a Catholic life, despite his pontificate being pretty much a disaster.

Also given the politics surrounding V2...it breeds cyncism among traditionalists and continues to fuel Conciliarism amongst neo-Catholics and liberal Catholics.
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#27
(05-06-2014, 08:26 PM)austenbosten Wrote: I wonder if I can chime in. Is not a saint, someone who is in Heaven? and theoretically, is it not true that one who lived a very deplorable life could receive forgiveness and absolution, die, go through the sufferings of Purgatory and come out a saint?

Therefore is it not hard to believe that even a heretic like Martin Luther could be in Heaven if he made a perfect act of contrition and thus be technically a saint?

Amazing that you and I both wrote about Luther at the same time.  Certainly yes, he -- or anyone -- could be in heaven:  we don't know the state of souls at the time of death unless the Church confirms for us that someone has attained the beatific vision.

But JuniorCouncilor asked where I draw the line, and I think I would draw it there (schismatics, heretics, Jews, Muslims, pagans, etc. -- basically anyone outside the Church).  Fortunately, this is all hypothetical (I hope).
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#28
(05-06-2014, 08:09 PM)JuniorCouncilor Wrote:
(05-06-2014, 06:33 PM)ArturoOrtiz Wrote: If and when Pope Paul Vi is canonized I will accept the Church's decision

Not to put you on the spot-- but is there anyone whose canonization you would not be able to accept?  I just can't imagine accepting Paul VI's...

I guess I just feel like we should have enough certainty in the Church, at least about some things, to say, "No.  X can never happen.  That's what infallibility cum indefectibility means."  If we can't, I feel like something is horribly, terribly wrong.

Well this is what I found in the dictionary of a Family bible that I have from 1963

Canonization

An authoritative and infallible declaration by the pope that a person who has died belongs to the Church Triumphant and is to be given public veneration as a saint. The term itself originated in the eleventh century and describes the process by which a saint is declared. In the early Church martyrs were specially honored by the faithful and their burial places used for the celebration of Mass. After the persecutions ceased, it was more difficult to determine what holy persons might be considered  saints. Usually the bishop determined this for his diocese, and the transfer of the remains to a church was considered the formal approval. Veneration of saints  was generally  local, though some did become universally popular. After 993, when Pope John XV approved saintly honors for the Ulric of Augsburg, petitions for canonizations were more frequently directed to the pope and this became the general rule by 1200. The present norms of procedure, as found in the Code of Canon Law are substantially those approved by Pope Urban VIII in 1632. Today canonization completes the process begun for a person's beatification. At least two further miracles through the intercession of the beatus are usually required. The ceremonies of canonizations are among the most colorful and solemn in the Church. The declaration of canonization is official read, images of the saint are publicly venerated for the first time, and the new saint is solemnly invoked. The Holy Father usually performs these ceremonies in person at one of the Roman basicilas. The name of the new saint is included in the martyrology, and sometimes a special Mass and Office are composed in his honor. He is then properly styled saint, his feast is determined, and he is to be universally venerated. Churches may be dedicated under his name and Mass celebrated in his honor.

Beatification

The declaration by the pope that a person who has died is envoking the beatific vision. The decree of beatification, which is not an infallible declaration,, normally "but not necessarily" leads to canonization. The person who has been beatified  is called blessed and may be given  public veneration as the Holy See allows. This is usually restricted to the place or religious institute with which the beatus is associated. Neither churches nor altars may be dedicated to the person without special permission.

I also found this term
Promoter of the Faith

The ecclesiastic whose duty it is to examine every cause for beatification or canonization, lest the Church formally honor someone not worthy of such honor. He is commonly called the Devil's Advocate or Advocatus Diaboli because he so carefully cross-examines those who are working for a good cause. He examines all claims of miracles and virtue, and every objection he raises must be thouroughly answered before the Church speaks officially as to the state of the person under consideration.


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#29
In other words for that matter as others have stated. I will accept the church's decision if Pope Paul VI ends up being canonized. I will not feel obliged to pray to him, but I will accept the decision and call him a saint. This is true of any person whom the Church canonizes.

At the same time I don't think this is really an act of prudence if the decision comes about. If they want to canonize Paul VI then start by first canonizing Leo XIII and Pius XII
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#30
Nothing to see here at this point.  Even canonizing Roncalli and Wojtyla was purely about canonizing Vatican II and not the men.
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