Heresy in Sr. Faustina's Diary
#21
(06-27-2014, 10:38 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Tradition is Action is a questionable source for decent discussion of theological issues in my book. Their connection with Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira and the Brazillian TFP, coupled with Bishop de Castro Mayer's label of it as an "heretical sect" is enough to throw up a red flag for me. I would need to evaluate their claims individually.
What dogma of the Faith does TFP deny?
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#22
Although I have heard many strange things about Plinio, I don't believe this:
Quote:It has been condemned by the National Council of Brazilian Bishops as a cult, and breaks Canon Law 219. The founder, Dr. Plinio Correa De Oliveira, claimed (he's now deceased) to have a "private prophetic charism" and could tell a boy's vocation, or what he called "tao" by looking at his face. He would then select young boys to be "Our Lady's Warrior Monks" which the group considers to be a higher vocation than that of the married life or even the priesthood [EEK!] Members do not attend Mass, but rather gather outside saying "rapid fire rosaries" until it's time for Holy Communion. They refer to those who faithfully participate in Mass "White Heretics". Some members will even go so far as to replace the words of the Hail Mary with Plinio's name instead of Jesus and his mom, Donna Lucilla, instead of Mary. The group was also condemned by the Brazillian Bishops for "abuse of the Holy Name of Mary".
Although, after reading this, I must admit I don't know. Why should they be so reluctant when it comes to going to mass?
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#23
(06-23-2014, 01:50 AM)Geremia Wrote: See this.

Her diary contains at least one heresy; that is enough for Pope Pius XII to place it on the Index:
Quote:On October 2, 1936, she states that the “Lord Jesus” appeared to her and said, “Now, I know that it is not for the graces or gifts that you love Me, but because My Will is dearer to you than life. That is why I am uniting Myself with you so intimately as with no other creature.” (Divine Mercy in My Soul, The Diary of Sr. Faustina, Stockbridge, MA: Marian Press, 1987, p. 288)
So, more intimately than with the Immaculate Conception?

Quote:“From today on, do not fear God’s judgment, for you will not be judged.” (ibid., p. 168)
Who, besides Our Blessed Mother, can escape God's judgment?

These denigrations of our Blessed Mother, coupled with the Divine Mercy Chaplet hijacking her Rosary, make me really suspicious about that devotion.

Quote: “And the host came out of the Tabernacle and came to rest in my hands and I, with joy, placed it back in the Tabernacle. This was repeated a second time, and I did the same thing. Despite this, it happened a third time.” (ibid., p. 23) … “Oh, no, here it is again. I have to go put this back now.”
Seriously, what kind of silly vision is this?


Also, Pope Pius XII banned Sr. Faustina's image "in the forms proposed by" her (which were?). See this.

See AAS 51 [1959], p. 271:
"AAS 51:271" Wrote:NOTIFICAZIONE

Si rende noto che la Suprema Sacra Congregazione dei Sant'Offizio, prese in esame le asserite visioni e rivelazioni di Suor Faustina Kowalska, dell'Istituto di Nostra Signora della Misericordia, defunta nel 1938 presso Cracovia, ha stabilito quanto segue:

1. doversi proibire la diffusione delle immagini e degli scritti che presentano la devozione della Divina Misericordia nelle forme proposte dalla medesima Suor Faustina;

2. essere demandato alla prudenza dei Vescovi il compito di rimuovere le predette immagini, che eventualmente fossero già esposte al culto.  Dal Palazzo del S. Offizio, 6 marzo 1959.

Ugo O'Flaherty, Notare
"translation" Wrote:A notification of the Holy Office:

The Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, having examined the alleged visions and revelations of Sister Faustina Kowalska of the Institute of Our Lady of Mercy, who died in 1933 near Cracow, has decreed as follows:

1. The distribution of pictures and writings which present the devotion to the Divine Mercy in the forms proposed by this Sister Faustina, should be forbidden;

2. It is left to the prudent discretion of the Bishops to remove such pictures which may have been already exposed for worship.

From the Holy Office, 6 March, 1959.

Ugo O'Flaherty, Notary
(source of translation)

_______________________________________________________________________________

And something that strikes me odd about the Chaplet of Divine Mercy is this prayer in it:
Quote: Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.
Only Christ, through His priests, can properly offer Christ in atonement. It seems improper, to say the least, for laypeople to say this prayer. It would seem to make sense only if this were a prayer in the Mass.

Geremia,

Believe me, you will not want to hear this, but unfortunately, mystical experiences are radically subjective experiences and cannot in any way be considered apart from the personality, personal history and experience, cultural and ethnic background, intellectual capacity, and many other relative attributes of the individual mystic.

It is almost impossible to distinguish objective reality from subjective experience.  This is especially true in religious matters.  Thankfully, the Latin Rite has a theological research program that utilizes one of the best meta-languages ever devised:  Aristotelian logic.  But such tools are difficult to apply to mystical experiences.

When Padre Pio received the stigmata , he did not identify the person of Christ.  He simply refers to a mysterious "personage."  The experience reads rather eerily to be quite frank with you, and many accounts containing similar elements can be found in the writings of innumerable non-Christian mystics.

Who knows how God communicates himself to the individual person?
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#24
(06-29-2014, 12:20 PM)Joseph11 Wrote: When Padre Pio received the stigmata , he did not identify the person of Christ.  He simply refers to a mysterious "personage."  The experience reads rather eerily to be quite frank with you, and many accounts containing similar elements can be found in the writings of innumerable non-Christian mystics.

Padre Pio, referring to the wounds in his hands, asked God to "take away these confusing things." Sts. Francis of Assisi, Catherine of Sienna and Gemma Galgani described a visitation of a very similar and eerie "personage" when they received their stigmata. A seraph. St. John of the Cross wrote that mystics still have cultural biases and human limitations, even as you also said.

Quote: mystical experiences are radically subjective experiences and cannot in any way be considered apart from the personality, personal history and experience, cultural and ethnic background, intellectual capacity, and many other relative attributes of the individual mystic.
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#25
(06-28-2014, 10:28 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(06-27-2014, 10:38 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Tradition is Action is a questionable source for decent discussion of theological issues in my book. Their connection with Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira and the Brazillian TFP, coupled with Bishop de Castro Mayer's label of it as an "heretical sect" is enough to throw up a red flag for me. I would need to evaluate their claims individually.
What dogma of the Faith does TFP deny?

I don't know, since I didn't call them an "heretical sect". I just quoted the man who did -- Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer.

I don't assert they are "heretical", just that there is clearly a real problem with TFP if they were so clearly condemned by a Brazilian Ordinary who was involved with them for a time and whose orthodoxy is quasi-unquestionable.

I do know that the US TFP is not the same entity, though there are connections. To be clear, TIA is connected with the Brazilian group, not the Novus-Ordo-friendly US TFP.
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#26
(06-28-2014, 10:01 PM)Geremia Wrote: If it's on the Index, heresy should be presumed.

There are plenty of items that were on the index of a political or moral nature which contained not a shread of heresy.

There are also plenty of items that were suspected of heresy or theological error, but were listed pending correction, and never corrected.

Finally, heresy is a direct denial of a revealed truth, but there are many other types of error short of this which would lead to indexing.

The Index was not a list of heretical books, but a list of books which were a danger to the faith and morals of Catholics, thus prohibited under pain of sin.

Thus, we cannot presume heresy, especially if there is a fair way of explaining a passage without twisting things around.

I should note, I am not a particular fan of the devotion or Sr. Faustina, and I have read parts of the diary and was not particularly impressed. At the same time, we have to be careful how quickly we throw around "error" and "heresy", reserving them for true heresy and error, not mere questionable statements that admit of a benign interpretation.
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#27
(06-29-2014, 11:44 AM)PolishTrad Wrote: Although I have heard many strange things about Plinio, I don't believe this:
Quote:It has been condemned by the National Council of Brazilian Bishops as a cult, and breaks Canon Law 219. The founder, Dr. Plinio Correa De Oliveira, claimed (he's now deceased) to have a "private prophetic charism" and could tell a boy's vocation, or what he called "tao" by looking at his face. He would then select young boys to be "Our Lady's Warrior Monks" which the group considers to be a higher vocation than that of the married life or even the priesthood [EEK!] Members do not attend Mass, but rather gather outside saying "rapid fire rosaries" until it's time for Holy Communion. They refer to those who faithfully participate in Mass "White Heretics". Some members will even go so far as to replace the words of the Hail Mary with Plinio's name instead of Jesus and his mom, Donna Lucilla, instead of Mary. The group was also condemned by the Brazillian Bishops for "abuse of the Holy Name of Mary".
Although, after reading this, I must admit I don't know. Why should they be so reluctant when it comes to going to mass?

I get "Crusade" in the mail, which one of their regular magazines, and I have always had this feeling that TFP was like a cult.  Guess my feeling was based on reality.
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#28
(06-29-2014, 07:41 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-28-2014, 10:01 PM)Geremia Wrote: If it's on the Index, heresy should be presumed.

There are plenty of items that were on the index of a political or moral nature which contained not a shread of heresy.

There are also plenty of items that were suspected of heresy or theological error, but were listed pending correction, and never corrected.

Finally, heresy is a direct denial of a revealed truth, but there are many other types of error short of this which would lead to indexing.

The Index was not a list of heretical books, but a list of books which were a danger to the faith and morals of Catholics, thus prohibited under pain of sin.

Thus, we cannot presume heresy, especially if there is a fair way of explaining a passage without twisting things around.

I should note, I am not a particular fan of the devotion or Sr. Faustina, and I have read parts of the diary and was not particularly impressed. At the same time, we have to be careful how quickly we throw around "error" and "heresy", reserving them for true heresy and error, not mere questionable statements that admit of a benign interpretation.
The books on the Index are generally on there for a known reason, though. This doesn't seem to be the case for Sr. Faustina's diary. Thus, heresy (or at the very least, error) should be presumed until further evidence proves to the contrary.
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#29
(06-29-2014, 12:20 PM)Joseph11 Wrote: Who knows how God communicates himself to the individual person?
God doesn't and cannot prompt someone to write heretical statements, though.
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#30
(07-01-2014, 02:19 PM)Geremia Wrote: The books on the Index are generally on there for a known reason, though. This doesn't seem to be the case for Sr. Faustina's diary. Thus, heresy (or at the very least, error) should be presumed until further evidence proves to the contrary.

Except that doesn't follow at all ... If there are several possible reasons for something, and if we don't know the reason and have no evidence for any particular one, we certainly have no justification to assume one to be true in preference to the others.

What we can assume is that it should not have been read, and once removed from the Index, or at least implicitly approved by the proper authority, there are no canonical penalties for reading it.

The latter does not necessarily make it valuable, however.
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