Heresy in Sr. Faustina's Diary
#31
(07-01-2014, 02:19 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(06-29-2014, 12:20 PM)Joseph11 Wrote: Who knows how God communicates himself to the individual person?
God doesn't and cannot prompt someone to write heretical statements, though.

No, but someone could, thinking and believing with all their heart that it was God doing the prompting when in fact it was not, write heretical statements, or even whole books.
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#32
Faustina's diary holds her personal revelations.  In that case why would Geremia have to believe any of it if he or she does not care too?  AsI  understand it, no one is required to believe another's personal revelations as a matter of Faith.  The Church has made the judgement that the devotion is worthy, so nitpicking through the diary seems an exercise in futility to me, and to what end?  The gist of the devotion is that it reiterates the mercy that Christ has already extended to us.
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#33
I've always found it a little odd that, according to many of these visionaries, Our Lord apparently talks as if He were reciting lyrics from a bad love song.
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#34
(07-02-2014, 07:13 PM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: Faustina's diary holds her personal revelations.  In that case why would Geremia have to believe any of it if he or she does not care too?  AsI  understand it, no one is required to believe another's personal revelations as a matter of Faith.   The Church has made the judgement that the devotion is worthy, so nitpicking through the diary seems an exercise in futility to me, and to what end?   The gist of the devotion is that it reiterates the mercy that Christ has already extended to us.
This is not about believing whether it is a true revelation or not but rather about proclaiming it is heresy when we do not have that authority from Holy Church.
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#35
(07-01-2014, 02:19 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(06-29-2014, 07:41 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-28-2014, 10:01 PM)Geremia Wrote: If it's on the Index, heresy should be presumed.

There are plenty of items that were on the index of a political or moral nature which contained not a shread of heresy.

There are also plenty of items that were suspected of heresy or theological error, but were listed pending correction, and never corrected.

Finally, heresy is a direct denial of a revealed truth, but there are many other types of error short of this which would lead to indexing.

The Index was not a list of heretical books, but a list of books which were a danger to the faith and morals of Catholics, thus prohibited under pain of sin.

Thus, we cannot presume heresy, especially if there is a fair way of explaining a passage without twisting things around.

I should note, I am not a particular fan of the devotion or Sr. Faustina, and I have read parts of the diary and was not particularly impressed. At the same time, we have to be careful how quickly we throw around "error" and "heresy", reserving them for true heresy and error, not mere questionable statements that admit of a benign interpretation.
The books on the Index are generally on there for a known reason, though. This doesn't seem to be the case for Sr. Faustina's diary. Thus, heresy (or at the very least, error) should be presumed until further evidence proves to the contrary.

So we presume heresy without evidence of same? If there is no evidence of heresy, that makes the case weaker unless you think the Index was infallible? So what it was on the Index? Other books have been placed there even authored by beati and saints and later were removed. Quoting member SaintSebastian in another thread here:
" For example, Bl. Raymond Llull had over 100 propositions condemned by the Inquisition and 20 books condemned by the Pope in the 14th century, and he was beatified later by Bl.  Pius IX (FWIW, the decrees of condemnation were left out of editions of Denzinger subsequent to 1854, after being included in earlier editions).  St. Robert Bellarmine had his Controversies put on the Index by Sixtus V, but the Pope died before the decree could be published, and his successor took it off--concerning the doctrine in dispute, the universal civil jurisdiction of the Pope, the Church has subsequently embraced Bellarmine's, not Sixtus V's, position). "

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...99.30.html

On June 30, 1978, The Sacred Congregation for the doctrine of the Faith (A.A.S. page 350) published a “Notification” signed April 15, 1978, by His Eminence Franjo Cardinal Seper, Prefect, and Archbishop Jerome Hamer, O.P., Secretary. It is as follows:

From various places, especially from Poland, even proceeding from competent authority, it has been asked whether the prohibitions contained in the “Notification” of the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, published in the Acts of the Apostolic See, in the year 1959, p. 271, regarding the devotion to The Divine Mercy in the forms proposed by Sister Faustina Kowalska must be regarded as still in force.

This Sacred Congregation, having now in possession the many original documents unknown in 1959; having taken into consideration the profoundly changed circumstances, and having taken into account the opinion of many Polish Ordinaries, declares no longer binding the prohibitions contained in the quoted “Notification.”

C.
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#36
(07-03-2014, 12:23 AM)Cetil Wrote: So we presume heresy without evidence of same?
While waiting for the evidence to the contrary, yes.
(07-03-2014, 12:23 AM)Cetil Wrote: If there is no evidence of heresy, that makes the case weaker unless you think the Index was infallible?
In the case of Sr. Faustina's diary, there is evidence.
(07-03-2014, 12:23 AM)Cetil Wrote: So what it was on the Index? Other books have been placed there even authored by beati and saints and later were removed.
Galileo is another example.
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#37
(07-02-2014, 08:52 PM)GodFirst Wrote: This is not about believing whether it is a true revelation or not but rather about proclaiming it is heresy when we do not have that authority from Holy Church.
Any Catholic can judge something to be heretical (cf. Galatians 1:8-9, where St. Paul instructs them to pass judgment as to what may be a false gospel), but not all Catholics have the authority to impose censures.
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#38
(07-03-2014, 03:06 AM)Geremia Wrote:
(07-03-2014, 12:23 AM)Cetil Wrote: So we presume heresy without evidence of same?
While waiting for the evidence to the contrary, yes.
(07-03-2014, 12:23 AM)Cetil Wrote: If there is no evidence of heresy, that makes the case weaker unless you think the Index was infallible?
In the case of Sr. Faustina's diary, there is evidence.
(07-03-2014, 12:23 AM)Cetil Wrote: So what it was on the Index? Other books have been placed there even authored by beati and saints and later were removed.
Galileo is another example.

By that logic when we go to confession we should have to prove  ourselves innocent of all possible sins. Disagree on the evidence, notice the CDF explanation I quoted. Church authorities judge heresy Geremia. Otherwise it's chaos.

C.
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#39
(07-03-2014, 03:09 AM)Geremia Wrote:
(07-02-2014, 08:52 PM)GodFirst Wrote: This is not about believing whether it is a true revelation or not but rather about proclaiming it is heresy when we do not have that authority from Holy Church.
Any Catholic can judge something to be heretical (cf. Galatians 1:8-9, where St. Paul instructs them to pass judgment as to what may be a false gospel), but not all Catholics have the authority to impose censures.
No, Geremia, no lay Catholic has the authority to formally declare anything heresy that is the Church's job and more specifically the job of the high priest. We are not make private judgments like that as Bl. Peter indicated in his Epistle. To even think such a thing in the past would have gotten you labelled a heretic or at least schismatic. You have no authority in the Church to bind your fellow Catholics.
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#40
(07-03-2014, 03:06 AM)Geremia Wrote:
(07-03-2014, 12:23 AM)Cetil Wrote: So we presume heresy without evidence of same?
While waiting for the evidence to the contrary, yes.
What evidence can be given for those like you who refuse believe any such evidence as you have in this thread?
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