The Pope speaks with the young Franciscans of the Immaculate
#11
So, what is a "discernment"? It would have to be something that cannot restrict celebration of the TLM, per 2. and 5. Therefore, it must be a "conversation".
Also, where in SP is this rubbish about SP applying only to those with some founding charisma?

It appears to mean that if there is a group that already has the TLM and they were in need of a priest to help out that they could be available to help out.
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#12
I finally read the Rorate and the La Stampa pieces. Frankly this has upset me much more than I would expect.

The dishonesty of it all. Hardly no one uses the Mass of S. John XXIII as an ideological tool; not even the SSPX, from what I can tell – it would be quite offensive to the great majority of traditional minded individuals to suggest that they only go to TLMs because of political reasons. But the Mass of Paul VI and Vatican II are constantly being used ideologically. Maybe its not plain dishonesty, maybe its just narrow-mindedness: because they are almost sacrilegious using the Mass and the Council to advance ideologies they think everybody is like that.

Besides, I don't see anything wrong in celebrating the Tridentine Mass exclusively. Is that Mass so inferior that it needs to be supplemented by the new Mass? Why aren't the countless churches being punished for celebrating exclusively the new mass?
This reminds me of what some traditional-friendly priests sometimes say: we cannot just bring the Tridentine Mass back (not even saying stuff in Latin or giving the back to the almighty crowd), it will scare people. But isn't that what happened with the implementation of the new mass?

This is a mess. This sort of thing the Pope is doing is scaringly similar to what liberals did in many dioceses, subverting them from the inside – not really changing the rules, but applying them in an malicious way.

What should we do?
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#13
(06-25-2014, 08:43 AM)Renatus Frater Wrote: I finally read the Rorate and the La Stampa pieces. Frankly this has upset me much more than I would expect.

The dishonesty of it all. Hardly no one uses the Mass of S. John XXIII as an ideological tool; not even the SSPX, from what I can tell – it would be quite offensive to the great majority of traditional minded individuals to suggest that they only go to TLMs because of political reasons. But the Mass of Paul VI and Vatican II are constantly being used ideologically. Maybe its not plain dishonesty, maybe its just narrow-mindedness: because they are almost sacrilegious using the Mass and the Council to advance ideologies they think everybody is like that.

Besides, I don't see anything wrong in celebrating the Tridentine Mass exclusively. Is that Mass so inferior that it needs to be supplemented by the new Mass? Why aren't the countless churches being punished for celebrating exclusively the new mass?
This reminds me of what some traditional-friendly priests sometimes say: we cannot just bring the Tridentine Mass back (not even saying stuff in Latin or giving the back to the almighty crowd), it will scare people. But isn't that what happened with the implementation of the new mass?

This is a mess. This sort of thing the Pope is doing is scaringly similar to what liberals did in many dioceses, subverting them from the inside – not really changing the rules, but applying them in an malicious way.

What should we do?
I really want to like Pope Francis; I really do. But, so much of what he does seems to undermine what traditional Catholics stand for. :(
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#14
(06-25-2014, 03:19 PM)Papist Wrote:
(06-25-2014, 08:43 AM)Renatus Frater Wrote: I finally read the Rorate and the La Stampa pieces. Frankly this has upset me much more than I would expect.

The dishonesty of it all. Hardly no one uses the Mass of S. John XXIII as an ideological tool; not even the SSPX, from what I can tell – it would be quite offensive to the great majority of traditional minded individuals to suggest that they only go to TLMs because of political reasons. But the Mass of Paul VI and Vatican II are constantly being used ideologically. Maybe its not plain dishonesty, maybe its just narrow-mindedness: because they are almost sacrilegious using the Mass and the Council to advance ideologies they think everybody is like that.

Besides, I don't see anything wrong in celebrating the Tridentine Mass exclusively. Is that Mass so inferior that it needs to be supplemented by the new Mass? Why aren't the countless churches being punished for celebrating exclusively the new mass?
This reminds me of what some traditional-friendly priests sometimes say: we cannot just bring the Tridentine Mass back (not even saying stuff in Latin or giving the back to the almighty crowd), it will scare people. But isn't that what happened with the implementation of the new mass?

This is a mess. This sort of thing the Pope is doing is scaringly similar to what liberals did in many dioceses, subverting them from the inside – not really changing the rules, but applying them in an malicious way.

What should we do?
I really want to like Pope Francis; I really do. But, so much of what he does seems to undermine what traditional Catholics stand for. :(

I wanted to like him too, at first.  My wife accuses me of being far too generous with giving people the benefit of the doubt.  Well, Pope Francis has cured me of that, at least with respect to him.  I'd better not say what I really think of him, although, on a one to one basis, as a human being, I'm sure he is quite likeable.
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#15
(06-25-2014, 03:19 PM)Papist Wrote:
(06-25-2014, 08:43 AM)Renatus Frater Wrote: I finally read the Rorate and the La Stampa pieces. Frankly this has upset me much more than I would expect.

The dishonesty of it all. Hardly no one uses the Mass of S. John XXIII as an ideological tool; not even the SSPX, from what I can tell – it would be quite offensive to the great majority of traditional minded individuals to suggest that they only go to TLMs because of political reasons. But the Mass of Paul VI and Vatican II are constantly being used ideologically. Maybe its not plain dishonesty, maybe its just narrow-mindedness: because they are almost sacrilegious using the Mass and the Council to advance ideologies they think everybody is like that.

Besides, I don't see anything wrong in celebrating the Tridentine Mass exclusively. Is that Mass so inferior that it needs to be supplemented by the new Mass? Why aren't the countless churches being punished for celebrating exclusively the new mass?
This reminds me of what some traditional-friendly priests sometimes say: we cannot just bring the Tridentine Mass back (not even saying stuff in Latin or giving the back to the almighty crowd), it will scare people. But isn't that what happened with the implementation of the new mass?

This is a mess. This sort of thing the Pope is doing is scaringly similar to what liberals did in many dioceses, subverting them from the inside – not really changing the rules, but applying them in an malicious way.

What should we do?
I really want to like Pope Francis; I really do. But, so much of what he does seems to undermine what traditional Catholics stand for. :(

Agreed. Apart from the first sentence.
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#16
Poche, the articles say the exact opposite. They say that the Pope implied more than once that he was very familiar with it all and approves of Volpi
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#17
One other thing that is missing is that the Pope took time to meet with the young Fransciscans of the Immaculate. I thought that this was really thoughtful on his part. not everybody gets to spend time with the Pope and hear from his own mouth what he is actually thinking.
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#18
Father Federico Lombardi, the director of the Holy See Press Office, has issued a statement in response to questions related to recent media reports on the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate and the Legionaries of Christ.

Andrea Tornielli has reported that Pope Francis met on June 10 with members of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate. Father Lombardi confirmed that Pope Francis met on that day with Father Fidenzio Volpi, the community’s commissioner, and all of the community’s seminarians, and stated that the community is searching for a house in Rome so that the seminarians could study at a pontifical university.

In response to reports on the Legionaries of Christ, Father Lombardi said that with the drafting of a new constitution for the community, the work of the pontifical delegate (Cardinal Velasio de Paolis) has concluded and the Legionaries again fall under the purview of the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life.

The congregation’s prefect and secretary, Father Lombardi continued, will meet with the Legionaries’ leadership on July 3 and offer “very few” corrections to the draft of the new constitution. They will also communicate the name of a newly appointed assistant who will not be a commissioner (such as Father Volpi) or a delegate (such as Cardinal de Paolis), but instead serve in an advisory role.


http://www.catholicculture.org/news/head...ryid=21815
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#19
(06-25-2014, 03:38 PM)J Michael Wrote: I wanted to like him too, at first.  My wife accuses me of being far too generous with giving people the benefit of the doubt.  Well, Pope Francis has cured me of that, at least with respect to him.  I'd better not say what I really think of him, although, on a one to one basis, as a human being, I'm sure he is quite likeable.

Giving people the benefit of the doubt is a good thing, the Catholic way. So good on you!

But, yeah, that giving of the benefit of the doubt assumes that one doesn't know and doesn't have evidence one way or another as to the "whys" of a person's doing this or that, or behaving this or that way. The thing is, though, that sometimes people act in such a way that it's no longer rational to give the benefit of the doubt overall, in terms of that person's general approach to things. I think we still have to give the benefit of the doubt (which assumes doubt can exist) in individual instances, but we can do that while also thinking that the person in question has an approach to things that is nefarious. Sometimes people do make their motives known and we don't have to guess at them.

When it comes to Pope Francis, I, like you, imagine him to be quite "likeable" -- but, man, is he confusing and infuriating, and I've come to not trust his motives when it comes to Tradition and traditionalists. He's not just "a son of Vatican II"; he's its poster-child. I think he lacks mental clarity and any sense of how he comes off. And I think he wants us trads gone, for the TLM to die already so folks can get back to Kumbaya Masses and focus on social justice, chummy phone conversations that leave the world reeling, and washing the feet of Muslim women and -- whatever, which, I'm guessing, he thinks will show how "cool" the Church is so people will just flock to Her in great waves. I think he is truly, honestly bewildered that trads exist -- especially young ones. I don't think he can wrap his mind around why young people who weren't raised with it are clamoring for it, and I think their doing so really freaks him out. In any case, his pontificate makes for an interesting ride, that's fo' sho'. SIGH!

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#20
Good morning Vox i want to say something  about the following that is a quote from you last post

"When it comes to Pope Francis, I, like you, imagine him to be quite "likeable" -- but, man, is he confusing and infuriating, and I've come to not trust his motives when it comes to Tradition and traditionalists. He's not just "a son of Vatican II"; he's its poster-child. I think he lacks mental clarity and any sense of how he comes off. And I think he wants us trads gone, for the TLM to die already so folks can get back to Kumbaya Masses and focus on social justice, chummy phone conversations that leave the world reeling, and washing the feet of Muslim women and -- whatever, which, I'm guessing, he thinks will show how "cool" the Church is so people will just flock to Her in great waves. I think he is truly, honestly bewildered that trads exist -- especially young ones. I don't think he can wrap his mind around why young people who weren't raised with it are clamoring for it, and I think their doing so really freaks him out. In any case, his pontificate makes for an interesting ride, that's fo' sho'. SIGH!"

I like most everyone else on this forum  always seem to feel off balance to say the least by what this Pope says and does.  Yes we should try to give him the benefit of the doubt but for me anyways the doubt seems to be increasing.  For instance  you say "he lacks mental clarity and any sense of how he comes off", well i  am beginning to think he really does know what he is doing and is just playing us, because no one as educated as he is can be that stupid. Also you mention "And I think he wants us trads gone, for the TLM to die already so folks can get back to Kumbaya Masses and focus on social justice,''.  Well just think about what you said  for a minute. He wants a focus on social justice. I  interprete that  as a different Gospel and that is something scripture warns us about.  All the church of nice preaches these days is a Social Gospel and  hey don't worry about hell because most  anyone will be going to heaven never mind what ever religion you belong to.  The true Gospel  always will focus on the need of saving souls at any  cost because we all know that is the only reason Jesus came, so he could save us from eternal damnation, not our social problems.  So when we see this abandoned we should really take note because i am thinking that this entire situation is coming from the father of lies.  One thing to remember about this particular  Liar and in fact any accomplished liar is you  have to tell  or represent the TRUTH most of the time enough so your victim is never really able to be certain of the deception but enough so the victims attention is diverted from reality and they become ineffective to  fight something they cant really see.  Anyway i need to cut this short  because i need to head off to work, but i think you  can see where i am going with this.


Later and God Bless
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