My friend wants to "come out"
#11
I would say it is a bad idea to make a public announcement for the following reasons:
-this day and age some family members might encourage the person to sin, or to trivialize the issue
-once one comes out as gay, there is no going back, meaning what if, in future years you want to try dating a girl?
-it will give unnecessary stress to family and friends that don't agree with homosexuality
-it may create guilt for parents that might feel they contributed to this
-if same-sex attractions are experienced as a sinful temptation, letting others know your weaknesses is not a good idea.
-don't forget that the devil will use others as a means of creating temptation for you. The less weapons you give him the better.

One could simply tell family and friends that one isn't interested in dating at the moment and is exploring a celibate lifestyle.
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#12
(08-05-2014, 12:06 PM)Layman Wrote: I would like to know the official position of the Church on the proposition in bold.

You're not going to find an "official position" of the Church, because it's a matter of ethics and moral theology, not a matter of dogma.

However, the conclusion that in principle a spouse has a right to know of the infidelity of the other is fairly easy to come by.

First argument : Marriage is firstly a contract between a man and a woman by which they give each other the exclusive right to exercise the acts requisite for the procreation of children, bind
themselves to live indissolubly and promise mutual help and support. To commit adultery is to defraud the other spouse. A man has the right to know he has been defrauded and to restitution.

Second argument : The married must normally live together, but if one of the spouses has committed adultery, the other has the right to separate and even (perhaps perpetually) deny the marital debt. If a spouse has a right to separate from an adulterous spouse, he must know that adultery occurred.

This would seem to establish that there is a duty in principle (per se)for a spouse to admit infidelity when it occurs.

However, in certain circumstances, (i.e. per accidens), it may happen that this duty does not strictly bind. For instance, if the spouse is very psychologically fragile and such a revelation would cause serious psychological harm, there might be justification to omit revealing the infidelity. This would have to be a very serious reason, able to be clearly established by facts, and this would be the exception, not the rule.
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#13
(08-05-2014, 09:13 AM)Layman Wrote: Joking aside: Life should be lived strategically. I can't see any good coming out of what your friend wants to do and it will alter everyone's opinion of him forever. Also: he knows this, surely, on some level. So why does he want to tell people something bad about himself?

If everyone's opinion of him is based on something that is not true about him, how can that be good for him?
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#14
(08-05-2014, 12:40 PM)winoblue1 Wrote: -if same-sex attractions are experienced as a sinful temptation, letting others know your weaknesses is not a good idea.

And feigning strength where none exists is a good idea?

Quote:One could simply tell family and friends that one isn't interested in dating at the moment and is exploring a celibate lifestyle.

In other words, simply lie to everyone.

With corrupted morality such as this, it is no wonder Traditional Catholicism is having such problems with an educated, thinking public.  You can't effectively condemn hypocrites when you are one yourself.
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#15
(08-05-2014, 09:13 AM)Layman Wrote: No way in heck should one announce such a thing. It's like the old question: "Should I tell my wife I had an affair?"

Answer: Sure, if you want to wreck your life!

Let's think it through:

Your friend gathers his family together. They wait expectantly. His dear old dad, his careworn mother, his annoying younger brother, sitting on the couch and Dad's old easy chair ...

And says: "I've been struggling for a long time with these feelings. I just can't live with the lies any more. It's time I was honest with myself and with you all ...."

They wait expectantly.

"I'm a vampire".

"Oh, meine kinder" says Momma.
"Well done, son" says dad. "All those years rearing you, sacrificing, going without so that you could have a bit extra, you've made it all worthwhile. C'mere y' big goof ..."

And they all embrace and live happily ever after.

Yep, that's gonna happen, all righty.

Joking aside: Life should be lived strategically. I can't see any good coming out of what your friend wants to do and it will alter everyone's opinion of him forever. Also: he knows this, surely, on some level. So why does he want to tell people something bad about himself?

Mrs. Layman, warning:  Mr. Layman can't be trusted! Alert! Alert!

I wish I knew why you are comparing homosexuality with vampirism.  Vamipirism is pretty rare, but homosexuality is relatively common -- and, I'd guess, will become much, MUCH more common given the number of children growing up without fathers.

The point of a homosexual who's devoted to chastity "coming out" is to simply live his life with integrity, without lies, without feeling as if he's hiding, without having people try to get stuff to blackmail him with, to live without fear, to live honestly with regard to the answers to questions like "Why aren't you married?!" or ""I know this cute girl. Want me to set something up for you two, a blind date?"

As I've said, if I were homosexual, I hope I'd have the guts to just be straight-up about it, letting the chips fall where they may. I don't think I could bear to live without that sense of being a "whole person" with no big, scary secrets, and with being put in social situations in which I'd feel compelled to lie or BS my way out of.  How simple and pure and true to simply say, "I'm queer. No setting up of blind dates for me, but thanks :) "

Besides which, how are homosexuals supposed to get support if no one knows who they are? And if homosexuals are supposed to hide away like cockroaches, how are they to be kept out of seminaries?  If homosexuals are stuck in a culture that is so fear-filled they think they have to hide the Truth about their struggles, then marriage and seminaries will be used as hide-outs, to the detriment of the wives and parishioners involved.

And to the poster who said "there's no going back":  that simply isn't true. While most therapies don't work to "change a homosexual into a heterosexual," it does sometimes happen, and some homosexuals, who are honest about their issues, do marry low-libido women and go on to have children, the whole bit. If someone "out there" doesn't get it, the problem is really theirs, not the homosexual's.

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#16
(08-05-2014, 08:07 AM)LoyalVIews Wrote: I have a friend is by all means, from what I can tell, a devout Catholic. He told me yesterday that he would like to tell his family that he struggles with same sex attractions, but he doesn't intend to act on it at any time. He's nervous about it, so my question is, what can I say to him to encourage him? Would it be right for him to do that, because I think it would be.

He probably knows his family and their attitudes better than we do. He should consider that before saying anything. Lots of people are understanding about same sex attraction when it is NOT their son or daughter. That can change radically when it hits close to home.

C.
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#17
(08-05-2014, 10:00 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: The point of a homosexual who's devoted to chastity "coming out" is to simply live his life with integrity, without lies, without feeling as if he's hiding, without having people try to get stuff to blackmail him with, to live without fear, to live honestly with regard to the answers to questions like "Why aren't you married?!" or ""I know this cute girl. Want me to set something up for you two, a blind date?"

As I've said, if I were homosexual, I hope I'd have the guts to just be straight-up about it, letting the chips fall where they may. I don't think I could bear to live without that sense of being a "whole person" with no big, scary secrets, and with being put in social situations in which I'd feel compelled to lie or BS my way out of.  How simple and pure and true to simply say, "I'm queer. No setting up of blind dates for me, but thanks :) "

Besides which, how are homosexuals supposed to get support if no one knows who they are? And if homosexuals are supposed to hide away like cockroaches, how are they to be kept out of seminaries?  If homosexuals are stuck in a culture that is so fear-filled they think they have to hide the Truth about their struggles, then marriage and seminaries will be used as hide-outs, to the detriment of the wives and parishioners involved.

There's probably a media via here. One could simply say, "I've decided to live a celibate life" to those who would be scandalized by such a straight-forward statement. Or one could say that Ï have consulted with my spiritual director, and while I have not taken a vow, I have decided I must live a life a celibacy. Dear Family, I need your help to be faithful to this commitment, so could you ... [insert various needs from them here with explanation]"

Add to that, it's not a "lie" properly speaking to not reveal such matter to family or to anyone. The confessor need know only when sin has resulted. A "lie" is to say something false when you know the truth. If people are not owed information about your habits or temptations, you don't lie by refusing to say something, or allowing them to assume things about it. Hence why it's a matter of prudence best decided by the person themselves under the guidance of a good solid priest as spiritual director who know the soul in and out.
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#18
(08-06-2014, 07:03 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: There's probably a media via here. One could simply say, "I've decided to live a celibate life" to those who would be scandalized by such a straight-forward statement. Or one could say that Ï have consulted with my spiritual director, and while I have not taken a vow, I have decided I must live a life a celibacy. Dear Family, I need your help to be faithful to this commitment, so could you ... [insert various needs from them here with explanation]"

To me, that sounds more mysterious and weird and potentially creepy, something that'd leave folks wondering, "hmmm, is this guy a pedophile? A serial killer?"  And I'm not sure how someone could be scandalized by hearing someone say he's homosexual. I mean, if such a person is "scandalized," then it seems to me that that person needs to educate himself. The only sort of exception I can imagine to that sort of thing is some 102-year old spinster aunt who truly doesn't "get" what it actually means and would freak out about it.

And how could the family help if they don't know the situation? "Could you help me keep this goal by --- not setting me up with camping weekends with that hunky guy next door?" or "by not setting me up with your cute girlfriends?"

Quote: Add to that, it's not a "lie" properly speaking to not reveal such matter to family or to anyone. The confessor need know only when sin has resulted. A "lie" is to say something false when you know the truth. If people are not owed information about your habits or temptations, you don't lie by refusing to say something, or allowing them to assume things about it. Hence why it's a matter of prudence best decided by the person themselves under the guidance of a good solid priest as spiritual director who know the soul in and out.

I understand that withholding information from people who have no right to it is not lying, but being homosexual and being in the world is a recipe for scenarios in which one has to muddle through, come up with some clever words, escape situations without revealing the Truth, and always feel as if one has to hide, feign being straight by laughing at the "right" jokes, or what have you. To me, that sort of life would feel like a big lie even if others don't have a "right" to know. 

One time, I found out a friend of a friend was homosexual when I was doing this psych test on him for fun when we were driving somewhere. The question was "Are you attractive to the opposite sex?" Instead of "attractive," he heard "attracted." He answered no. I told him he was. He said he wasn't. I said, "yes, you are." Then he figured out what I'd actually asked, and we laughed and laughed. But imagine if he hadn't been wanting to reveal himself, had been wanting to hide out of fear of being judged or whatever, and thought I'd asked that question. There's no way to win in answering:  he could say "I don't want to answer that" or "none of your business" -- but we all know what that'd reveal.

The other problem is that of "tell one, tell all." "Sure, tell your close family, but don't tell anyone else." Well, sister tells her bestie, as a secret. Then it's out everywhere as a whispering campaign. I couldn't bear to live that way.

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#19
(08-06-2014, 09:30 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: And I'm not sure how someone could be scandalized by hearing someone say he's homosexual. I mean, if such a person is "scandalized," then it seems to me that that person needs to educate himself. The only sort of exception I can imagine to that sort of thing is some 102-year old spinster aunt who truly doesn't "get" what it actually means and would freak out about it.

If one has to be careful about saying "evolution" among traditional Catholics lest one be accused of being a reincarnation of Fr. Teillhard de Chardin, I can only imagine what they would think of the man they hear is a "homosexual" and they see going to Communion ...

Yes, it is sad we make these assumptions, but when the majority of people hear "homosexual" or "gay" they think the person is an active sexual deviant, not a man (or woman) who is celibate and probably doing a better job fighting off the impure thoughts than the average heterosexual Catholic, since he knows his weakness is more grave since it tends toward unnatural sins.
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#20
(08-06-2014, 10:27 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: If one has to be careful about saying "evolution" among traditional Catholics lest one be accused of being a reincarnation of Fr. Teillhard de Chardin, I can only imagine what they would think of the man they hear is a "homosexual" and they see going to Communion ...

Yes, it is sad we make these assumptions, but when the majority of people hear "homosexual" or "gay" they think the person is an active sexual deviant, not a man (or woman) who is celibate and probably doing a better job fighting off the impure thoughts than the average heterosexual Catholic, since he knows his weakness is more grave since it tends toward unnatural sins.

Oh, I understand those problems for sure (and how!) Doing what I do for the last 20 years has taught me that lesson LOL  But I think such things should be used as teaching opportunities --- and I hate the idea of a homosexual feeling as if he's "dirty" or "unmentionable," that he has to hide and not seek help for his problems because some people just don't get it and make assumptions they shouldn't be making. KWIM?

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