Courtship fails, opinions?
#11
I saw this sh*tt* article on facebook first. The most stupid and anti-Christian thinking I've ever read. Children? In Christian culture you are an adult at 14 and 16 respectively for women and men. We want and need such responsibility at human beings. Dating, courtship or whatever you want to call it is purely and simply about the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony and nothing or little else. It is nonsensical or even dangerous to think otherwise. We need a sense of sacrifice most of all as Catholics not this "free love" bull. And that is exactly what this is. If anything our young adults need to learn more responsibility because most people are just wreckless today.
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#12
I think the problem here is that the rules and practices governing interactions between the sexes always exist within a given social context. The whole courtship model is obviously not supported by the conditions of modern society, so those who promote it or seek to practice it end up relying on their own private judgment, which inevitably results in all kinds of craziness and unhealthy behavior. I think one can say similar things about those who try to promote the concept of chivalry in modern society. This goal is certainly admirable in its way, but it's silly to expect the concept to influence any large number of people when present material conditions do everything to discourage chivalrous behavior. Attempting to promote traditional practices and values in a piecemeal fashion simply won't work. Somehow, you've got to change the whole culture, or at least build a coherent alternative culture that doesn't finally end up in the dead end of private judgment and individual choice.

Also, I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss arranged marriages. Our modern preference for companionate marriages is really just a prejudice--though, of course, prejudice is not necessarily a bad thing--with no basis in reason or observation, and it has arguably done more to destroy the institution of marriage than anything else.
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#13
There are good and bad things about courtship. 

Good: the expectation of chastity, the idea that the end goal of a relationship is to find someone to marry, the idea that parents should know who you are going out with and how you feel about them, the emphasis on praying for one's future spouse (prayer is never a bad thing)

Bad: the idea of courting being an assumed proposal, the artificial construct, the lack of opportunity for people to meet and interact prior to courtship

Here's the end result: Courtship is outmoded in our society and yet I can understand parents promoting it.  What is the alternative though?  Hook-up culture is certainly unChristian and corrupts everyone involved.  16 year olds today are not like 16 year olds 100 years ago.  Today, these kids (I won't use the term children) are not raised with any kind of responsibility or understanding of the way the world works.  They have zero expectation that what they say and do matters.  Tell a 16 year old girl that sleeping around or a long series of relationships with no commitment throws away a piece of who she is and she will just laugh.  It may seem extreme but we need some kind of new standard.  What should that standard be?  I would suggest that a modified courtship idea may be appropriate.  I would be more comfortable with an environment where there were lots of opportunities for young people to interact in a group setting and get to know one another.  When a young couple finds that they would like to spend more time together, they may do so in a chaperoned setting with clear expectations of purity (maybe not no kissing but certainly no sex).  If the relationship progresses to a point where they are ready to consider courting seriously, then a new set of boundaries should be put in place.  As a parent, I'm not letting my little girl go out whenever she pleases with whomever she pleases.  If she wants to date the town bad boy, she will have to sneak out her window.    I would hope that I have built a strong enough relationship with her that we could talk about her choices and what she hopes for in a future spouse. 

This said by a girl who married a man her mother hated, at least at first.  My mom did me the courtesy of asking what I saw in him and discussing things, though.  That doesn't mean she didn't try to throw up road blocks.  She did.  But at my wedding, she told me she understood and approved of Pilgrim.
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#14
(08-24-2014, 05:52 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: I think the problem here is that the rules and practices governing interactions between the sexes always exist within a given social context. The whole courtship model is obviously not supported by the conditions of modern society, so those who promote it or seek to practice it end up relying on their own private judgment, which inevitably results in all kinds of craziness and unhealthy behavior. I think one can say similar things about those who try to promote the concept of chivalry in modern society. This goal is certainly admirable in its way, but it's silly to expect the concept to influence any large number of people when present material conditions do everything to discourage chivalrous behavior. Attempting to promote traditional practices and values in a piecemeal fashion simply won't work. Somehow, you've got to change the whole culture, or at least build a coherent alternative culture that doesn't finally end up in the dead end of private judgment and individual choice.

Also, I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss arranged marriages. Our modern preference for companionate marriages is really just a prejudice--though, of course, prejudice is not necessarily a bad thing--with no basis in reason or observation, and it has arguably done more to destroy the institution of marriage than anything else.

Isn't that something the Church do?
Also, if a thing is in fashion or not in no way tells us what we should do. So, indeed, it doesn't really matter if chilvary is in fashion: this says nothing on what our attitude towards women should be. We might as well be the quixotesque figures we seem to be called to be.

Also, I don't wish to debate MacIntyre, but I think he got this quite wrong: we do choose, to a certain extent, our communities. A Franciscan chose to be a Franciscan and not a Dominican, likewise a Benedictine chose to be a Benedictine and not something else. Even the origin of these communities teach us something about how one create practices and values. We are first called by Christ, and we choose respond to it: we choose to live the form of Christ, to live in the Church. To deny this is to make the Church the apparatus of power.

Though I'm not against arranged marriage (my odds would be good with a girl of my social class, but, alas, I have to trust only in my charms), they also require a much more rigidly structured society, with clear families, etc. Sons and daughters of divorced parents (just to take one example of the problems one would face with arranged marriages today) would be in a tough spot.
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#15
Honestly, my biggest issue with the courtship model is that they seem very focused on teenagers.  Realistically most people in our society looking to marry aren't teenagers.  They are young adults, they don't live with their parents, they have jobs.  Sometimes our jobs or other parts of our lives might involve being alone with men.  Sometimes we may just not feel like we can get to know each other properly having to have a chaperone all the time, especially if we're already sticking to a public place.  What adult wants to be babysat?

And of course there's other problems.  I'd never be able to marry a man that met my father's approval.  We have absolutely mutually exclusive religious standards, so it wouldn't do much good to have a spouse seek approval.
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#16
EDIT: Of course, I'm still against courtship for the reasons I said before. I only contest this supposed impossibility of every traditional practices and values if the whole of culture is not in for it.

Why sometimes the modify button disappears? EDIT2: I guess you can't modify stuff from the other day.
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#17
Here's what I think, and I could be well off base, but dating should be much lower pressure on both parties. Often the pressure comes from parents who either push their children into engagement and marriage or push them away from their spouses. Of course, parents want what's best for their children, but they must also recognize that, at a certain point, it must be the child's decision and it's, if I'm honest, none of their business. The couple also tend to put a lot of pressure on themselves and one another to make things turn into something that they never were going to be.
"Punishment is justice for the unjust." Saint Augustine of Hippo
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#18
Realistically, the modern American courtship movement is associated with the Christian patriarchy.  It's based on a teaching of the father's headship that is not in accord with Catholic teaching.
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#19
I'm sorry.  Please forgive my ignorance but what is "Christian patriarchy"?
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#20
(08-25-2014, 08:30 PM)Sunset Wrote: Realistically, the modern American courtship movement is associated with the Christian patriarchy.  It's based on a teaching of the father's headship that is not in accord with Catholic teaching.

You could not be any more wrong about the headship -- read: kingship -- of the father within the family unit.
"Punishment is justice for the unjust." Saint Augustine of Hippo
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