Big Fan of Voris. Done with the "Lesé-majesté " policy

In response to TerryCMTV's post:

First, hi, Terry! Nice to talk to you again :)

I'm noticing the language you're using when talking about those who do criticize the Pope:  "jihad against the Pope"; "relentless attack"; "attack the Pope"; "obsessive need"; "is it healthy for family members, on every and any occasion, to devote all their energies to discussion of 'Papa's delicate condition'", etc.  I have a few comments about this:

1.  I don't think that all people who engage in criticism can be characterized in that way.

2.  I do think that there are some -- way too many -- who can definitely be characterized that way, who go way out of their way to harp on His Holiness, seeing everything in the worst light possible, impugning his motives, believing media lies, never giving him the doubt whenever possible, behaving with utter disrespect and nastiness and bitterness, etc.

3.  There's a third category consisting of folks who refuse to see what is true in terms of papal imprudence (and worse), who refuse to call a spade a spade and, in humility, charity, and with respect for the papal office, say what needs to be said in order to protect the faith of those of us in the Church Militant. For ex., if a Pope were to kiss a Koran, talking about that as if it was just fine and dandy leads to error in the folks reading such an apologia. But there are ways of talking about such an act that is harmful, that speaks of the act as being a sign that the Pope is a secret jihadist or -- whatever -- and there are ways of talking about it that shows the act to be, on its face, an imprudent move, but possibly borne of good motives, or from the Pope's being caught up in the moment without really thinking, etc. But I think it's important to clarify for the faithful that Koran-kissing isn't a good thing to do, informing them that the Koran is blasphemous, and so forth. IOW, if no one says anything, the we end up with Koran-kissing Catholics sitting in the pews, perhaps even thinking that "Islam means 'peace'" (!!!) and all that rubbish. But if people speak in a toxic trad way, just as much damage is done but from a different angle. So it's my hope that such things are spoken about and clarified -- but with the attitude of those who've had/are still undergoing a conversion of the heart, who aren't addicted to outrage, etc.  (that page just linked to is, I think, the most important page on this website!)

My take on criticism of His Holiness (or any Pope) is that folks who fit category 2 are a menace, are addicted to their love of being "scandalized," and likely haven't had a true "conversion of the heart". That "type," which I refer to as "toxic trads," do the Church and, therefore, Christ Himself no favors whatsoever with their expressed attitudes and sheer "sour-ness" and lack of virtue. I really don't want folks who express themselves in that way to post here, believing they defeat the very purpose of this website.

However, criticizing papal actions without going about it in a "toxic trad" manner is, I think, a fine and even necessary thing to do. It's just sad that there is such a lack of prudence from some people with regard to all this.

All that said, I think I understand why Mr. Voris doesn't want to "go there" in terms of criticizing things the Pope does. Like I said, and as I'm sure you know, there is a general lack of prudence in some parts of the trad world, and, sadly, some folks have a weak faith and an incomplete understanding of papal power and what constitutes an infallible statement, and can be prone to seeing imprudence or even sinfulness on the part of a Pope as somehow being "proof" that that Pope isn't a Pope at all. But while I see sincere criticism of papal actions as a necessary thing, that doesn't mean that I think Mr.  Voris needs to deal with that himself. There are all sorts of things in the world that are necessary that not each individual is called to do himself. If I were to come down with a brain tumor, it'd be necessary to remove it, but I wouldn't want Gilbert Gottfried wielding the scalpel, if you get my metaphor LOL (hmmmm, my metaphor isn't meant to compare Mr. Voris to Gilbert Gottfried LOL Just making a point, man!)

My sense, though, is that the folks who post around here tend to be relatively educated and definitely tend to NOT be "toxic trads." Maybe if the "FE crowd" were different I might do things the way Mr. Voris does, but, praise God, I don't see that as necessary since the "toxic trads" have been pretty much cleared out. And if one or two do post, it incites conversation, allowing them to get set straight and showing folks reading over our shoulders HOW to talk about such things without being asses about it.

As I've said, I think it's perfectly fine and legitimate for different apostolates to have different ways of doing things. I don't see it as some sort of "black mark" or sign of a lack of "guts" or whatever that Mr. Voris draws his lines where he does (anyone who'd accuse Michael Voris of "lacking guts" hasn't paid much attention, that's all I have to say about that!). CMTV is a lot larger than FE now, a lot more financially viable, able to hire staff and all that good stuff, and not drawing a line in the sand like that would, I imagine, lead to headache after headache in trying to get folks to walk the path of subtle thinking. Having a staff, in itself, would be a good reason to draw that line, even aside from worrying about big audiences possibly being led astray or to a state of despair because of not being able to think subtly. I once had moderators, volunteer ones, God bless 'em!, but their "takes" on things were often quite different from mine, and, because of their position as moderators, it wasn't rare that their opinions were taken as "those of FE" (heck, I get THAT still from people who read regular posters' posts and take them as "FE's position" because I allow the post in question to stand and be discussed. So frustrating!). If I were Mr. Voris, I'd be very wary about such things, and just disallowing criticism of the Pope as a general rule would cut down on a lot of migraines and preserve the "face" of CMTV that he'd like to show the world (he seems to have a really good staff, though. Well, with one possible exception I won't get into talking about unless it's with you or him personally LOL -- and that person could well have just been having a bad week or something).

At any rate, I see the ChurchMilitant apostolate as one of the best things that's happened to the trad world in a good long while. So rock on!  :metal:


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Re: Big Fan of Voris. Done with the "Lesé-majesté " policy - by VoxClamantis - 09-22-2014, 12:46 AM

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