Scola: Four Solutions for the Divorced and Remarried
#11
I agree with Saint Sebastian.
I think the real problem here is the never-ending problem. In a sane world, none of these rules would necessarily be bad, and some might be good. The 4th one in particular, as St.Seb says, sounds scary, but I think that is mostly because of who we think will be behind it, of the distortion of the original intent. It's not the rule, but the clowns that may end up implementing it that will be the problem. But then, they are always the problem. Properly applied, I can see the 4th idea end up being a lot of really, truly clear catechesis BEFORE marriage, and rejections of marriages.

My understanding is that one can confess some sins and not all but it gives one some graces to help one along to a real conversion, one that will reconcile the penitent with the Church. It is a little wonky though, because in the mind of the person living with another, knowing the Church says you cannot live as man and wife, going to confession to obtain some graces . . . . I think 0.00000001% will do this.

Ultimately, IF these 4 ideas were accepted and implemented by the Pope, liberals would cry foul because they do not allow them to receive communion, which is the real deal, nor do they allow them to receive sacramental forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church. It would give them none of the things they REALLY want. Would the system be abused? Definitely. Would the Libs go nuts? Certainly, as will many Trads and conservatives as well. And the actual number of people this will affect, the actual number of people divorced and remarried, living chastely now at home, attending Mass without going up for communion, and going to the confessional to confess sins knowing they will not be forgiven the biggie, is going to be abysmally low. It would just give the pope a chance to say to everyone "See, I gave them some concessions" and "See, I didn't give them what they wanted". And it will give the media a lot of great things to say about the "old guard" in the church battling against the progressives .. . . And the divorced and remarried couples out there will go on doing exactly what they are doing now. Some go up for communion. Some don't. One thing I think Fr. Z pointed out is the real issue here: will the Church allow for sex outside of Catholic marriage? This is the real issue. With these 4 ideas, the answer is still no.
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#12
Yeah, I share your pessimism that nothing will really change on the ground, it'll just cause more upset.  It makes this whole controversy one big act of navel-gazing--something this Pope himself has said over and over the Church shouldn't be doing. 


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#13
I don't understand the big stink about Communion, really.

Maybe it's different in other parts of the world, but in my small bubble I know no less than 4 couples who are remarried outside of the Church, and have had no limits to my knowledge placed on them in regards to Sacraments. While there are consequences on paper, there are none in reality - it's like being a pro-abortion politician.

Why are the liberals/modernists making such a big stink out of de facto situation, which apparently has no danger of being modified anytime in the near future?
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#14
(09-23-2014, 04:10 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
Quote:I think one great solution would be for the Church to deny matrimony to certain couples and demand a thorough chatechesis for people that want the sacrament.
But I doubt that will be done, since there's money involved.

I think this is generally what is supposed to be done now anyway (again, I think it probably varies in practice depending on where you live).

Yeah, right.


(09-23-2014, 04:51 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: I don't understand the big stink about Communion, really.

Maybe it's different in other parts of the world, but in my small bubble I know no less than 4 couples who are remarried outside of the Church, and have had no limits to my knowledge placed on them in regards to Sacraments. While there are consequences on paper, there are none in reality - it's like being a pro-abortion politician.

Why are the liberals/modernists making such a big stink out of de facto situation, which apparently has no danger of being modified anytime in the near future?

Come to think of it I don't know of anyone remarried that really desires sacramental communion.
But anyway, there are very real consequences: when one eats and drinks of the body of Christ unworthily one eats and drinks one's own condemnation.
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#15
Three isn't bad at all really. If a second 'marriage' had children, but then the couple repent, it's actually, as an act of charity, probably better from them to sleep apart but live together to bring their children up,vespecially if a large chunk of the children's' lives have been spent with both parents. No matter how 'civil' any separation might be it's still gonna leave a big scar on little Jonny if Daddy isn't coming home. That said, if there was genuine temptation of the couple being un chaste, and they fell into this sin, they would be obliged to live apart.
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#16
(09-23-2014, 03:48 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: Also, I don't think its sacrilegious: I've heard of saints that would confess past sins in order to enjoy the graces from the sacrament.
Knowingly withholding a sin in confession is itself a sin, though.
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#17
(09-23-2014, 04:51 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: I don't understand the big stink about Communion, really.
"…he that eateth and drinketh unworthily: eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of our Lord." —1 Cor. 11:29
It's not just about scandal.

(By the way: 1 Cor. 11:29, the tail-end of the Institution Narrative, is dropped from the Novus Ordo, even for Corpus Christi, according to Card. Stickler. I wonder why.)
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#18
(09-23-2014, 05:11 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote:
(09-23-2014, 04:10 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
Quote:I think one great solution would be for the Church to deny matrimony to certain couples and demand a thorough chatechesis for people that want the sacrament.
But I doubt that will be done, since there's money involved.

I think this is generally what is supposed to be done now anyway (again, I think it probably varies in practice depending on where you live).

Yeah, right.

Most dioceses require you to go through some sort of catechesis before they will marry you.  I also overheard a couple once talking about how they had to demonstrate they each had their own address (ie they weren't cohabitating) before they were allowed to be married--and they faked it because they were cohabitating.  So I guess it does happen, at least to some extent.
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#19
(09-23-2014, 10:34 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(09-23-2014, 04:51 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: I don't understand the big stink about Communion, really.
"…he that eateth and drinketh unworthily: eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of our Lord." —1 Cor. 11:29
It's not just about scandal.

(By the way: 1 Cor. 11:29, the tail-end of the Institution Narrative, is dropped from the Novus Ordo, even for Corpus Christi, according to Card. Stickler. I wonder why.)

I should clarify ... *I* understand why Communion is important, but why it's important to them remains a mystery to me. Most people who find themselves in this situation, at least from my experience, don't understand the Real Presence, or doesn't believe in it in the first place. Or don't care, they just want what's duly theirs.
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#20
(09-24-2014, 10:19 AM)PrairieMom Wrote:
(09-23-2014, 10:34 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(09-23-2014, 04:51 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: I don't understand the big stink about Communion, really.
"…he that eateth and drinketh unworthily: eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of our Lord." —1 Cor. 11:29
It's not just about scandal.

(By the way: 1 Cor. 11:29, the tail-end of the Institution Narrative, is dropped from the Novus Ordo, even for Corpus Christi, according to Card. Stickler. I wonder why.)

I should clarify ... *I* understand why Communion is important, but why it's important to them remains a mystery to me.
Probably the same reason the sodomites et al. desire it, too; they think it legitimates or rationalizes their sin.
(09-24-2014, 10:19 AM)PrairieMom Wrote: Most people who find themselves in this situation, at least from my experience, don't understand the Real Presence, or doesn't believe in it in the first place. Or don't care, they just want what's duly theirs.
Yes, exactly as St. Paul says; they don't "discern the the body of our Lord."
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