Sexual Orientation cannot change and never (well, nearly never) has changed
#11
(09-25-2014, 10:03 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(09-25-2014, 09:12 PM)2HeartsServant Wrote: Bud, you are what you are.  There's no shame in being attracted to another guy.  We should NOT judge others or identify ourselves by our inclinations; we SHOULD judge others and identify ourselves by behavior.  I believe sexual orientation is a modern social construct that is (quickly) losing its value in society.  It seems like you think SSA is disordered; it's not.  Unchastity and sexual immorality is disordered, not resisted sexual desire.  Thank God you are who and how you are, obey the laws of the Gospel and the Church, love God, our Lady, and your neighbors, stay close to the Sacraments, and be joyful.

No, SSA is disordered. The Catechism says, "2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial."  But "disorder" doesn't equate to "sin." It is not a sin to BE a homosexual; what IS sinful is acting sexually on those inclinations.

Yes, you're correct.  It IS true that SSA is a disordered attraction.  But people who experience it aren't disordered people.  It is the attraction itself that is disordered, NOT the person who experiences it.  The same language used in the catechism here is used to describe masturbation.  And people don't take on the identity of "masturbator" just because they practice this disordered act. 
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#12
(09-25-2014, 11:07 PM)2HeartsServant Wrote: Yes, you're correct.  It IS true that SSA is a disordered attraction.  But people who experience it aren't disordered people.  It is the attraction itself that is disordered, NOT the person who experiences it.  The same language used in the catechism here is used to describe masturbation.  And people don't take on the identity of "masturbator" just because they practice this disordered act.

The more gently things are put, the better, but, for ex., I'm manic-depressive (or "bipolar," as they're calling it these days). So I have a disorder. Ergo, I am disordered in that way. Which isn't to say that I am good-for-nothing, lacking in gifts, etc., but just telling it like it is, I have a disorder and, so, am "disordered" in that realm of my life.  But like I said, the more gently things are put, the better, and prudence is a great, great virtue. I wouldn't like if it someone were to call me "disordered" with a nasty attitude rather than in a matter-of-fact way, and I wouldn't do that to homosexuals, either.

There's a difference between engaging in a homosexual act (say, in prison) and being a homosexual (i.e., solely sexually attracted to the same sex). I've talked before (likely too many times) about the whole "identity" aspect of it all, but my take is that homosexuality involves a lot more than sexual acts (or the desire thereof), so identifying as a homosexual isn't a matter of "someone identifying himself in terms of where he puts or would like to put his penis," as some folks would describe it. It's much, much more complex than just that. People are complicated and fascinating! As I've also said, if I were King of the Forest, homosexuals would be loved and affirmed AS homosexuals, without shame put upon them for their inclinations. I want  homosexuals OUT of the closet and into the pews, fortified to live chastely, able to be honest about themselves, and to feel integrated in terms of their public and private lives.
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#13
(09-26-2014, 01:54 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(09-25-2014, 11:07 PM)2HeartsServant Wrote: Yes, you're correct.  It IS true that SSA is a disordered attraction.  But people who experience it aren't disordered people.  It is the attraction itself that is disordered, NOT the person who experiences it.  The same language used in the catechism here is used to describe masturbation.  And people don't take on the identity of "masturbator" just because they practice this disordered act.

The more gently things are put, the better, but, for ex., I'm manic-depressive (or "bipolar," as they're calling it these days). So I have a disorder. Ergo, I am disordered in that way. Which isn't to say that I am good-for-nothing, lacking in gifts, etc., but just telling it like it is, I have a disorder and, so, am "disordered" in that realm of my life.  But like I said, the more gently things are put, the better, and prudence is a great, great virtue. I wouldn't like if it someone were to call me "disordered" with a nasty attitude rather than in a matter-of-fact way, and I wouldn't do that to homosexuals, either.

There's a difference between engaging in a homosexual act (say, in prison) and being a homosexual (i.e., solely sexually attracted to the same sex). I've talked before (likely too many times) about the whole "identity" aspect of it all, but my take is that homosexuality involves a lot more than sexual acts (or the desire thereof), so identifying as a homosexual isn't a matter of "someone identifying himself in terms of where he puts or would like to put his penis," as some folks would describe it. It's much, much more complex than just that. People are complicated and fascinating! As I've also said, if I were King of the Forest, homosexuals would be loved and affirmed AS homosexuals, without shame put upon them for their inclinations. I want  homosexuals OUT of the closet and into the pews, fortified to live chastely, able to be honest about themselves, and to feel integrated in terms of their public and private lives.

Homosexuals here are known to organize processions during Holy Week, Easter, Town Patron Saint Feast Days and Christmas. They are also known to personally arrange flowers at the carozzas of the saints in processions.

But numerous homosexuals also put up a "gay santacruzan" every May. A mockery of Our Lady Saint Mary and Saint Helen, as well as Constantine. That I think is unfortunate.

Neopelagianus
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#14
I just wanted to add some more amputee examples, since this is often brought up as a miracle that doesn't happen.

Here's one good story:
http://www.clairval.com/lettres/en/2006/...061206.htm

In addition, St. John Damascene also had his hand restored after it was cut off.  Three-handed icons are intended to commemorate this:

[Image: tricherusa.jpg]

Also, St. Anthony of Padua is the patron saint of amputees due to being known to restore lost limbs. The main site here has an example:

In Padua, a young man named Leonardo kicked his own mother in a fit of anger. He confessed his fault to St. Anthony who said to him: "The foot of him who kicks his mother deserves to be cut off." Leonardo ran home and cut off his foot. Learning of this, St. Anthony took the amputated foot and miraculously rejoined it.
http://www.fisheaters.com/customstimeaft...ststa.html
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#15
Miles Immaculatae, you have my sympathy and respect.

As a soldier in the "Faithful SSA Catholic" Army (admittedly a small squadron), I have fought, battled, warred, and contended with this bastard of an issue for many years. Even when I was an atheist I just felt like I wasn't "whole", somehow. It didn't seem right, or natural, or properly-ordered. In a sense, part of my masculinity has been amputated.

I do not believe I will "get better" - but what is true wholeness and healing, anyway? Do you expect every tear to be wiped away now, in this veil of tears, before All Things are fulfilled? The Lord Jesus healed lepers, restored ears, stopped the flow of blood, and many other things... but what was the purpose of ending these physical maladies? It was to show us His great power to save part of us that's even more mysterious and wondrous than our body: our immortal soul. If Jesus Christ our God miraculously heals the body, He can heal the soul. Does this mean removing the spiritual malady that causes us pain? Sometimes, yes... and sometimes no.

The Lord first heals us of our ancient spiritual state that is sinful, cursed, and dead. The deepest human spirit is indwelt by the Holy Spirit via Baptism and the sacraments. Only slowly, through the whole span of our lives, does the Holy Spirit radiate throughout our soul - and only if we allow Him to do it by acts of love and charity. He leaves us with crosses and seemingly-unbearable things in order to humble us. Without temptations, no one could be saved. I, for one, would be incredibly proud and arrogant without my crosses, always forgetting God and the necessity of relying on Him for all my life, light, joy, and being.

I can't stand being out in public because there are so many beautiful, handsome men. I suspect it's often the same for straight men and beautiful women. Do not ask God to take away that which, in a sense, makes you to be You. All is taken up by Christ, and all is saved and healed in the love of Charity. Just wait. :)
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#16
www.jhnewman.org/do-homosexuals-exist-or-where-do-we-go-from-here.html
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/...osexuality

These articles are fantastic and have really helped to mold my view on this subject. Sure, these ideas may not sit well with everyone, but for me personally they have helped shape my view of this issue and, consequently, my own self.
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#17
(09-26-2014, 01:07 PM)Heorot Wrote: Miles Immaculatae, you have my sympathy and respect.

As a soldier in the "Faithful SSA Catholic" Army (admittedly a small squadron), I have fought, battled, warred, and contended with this bastard of an issue for many years. Even when I was an atheist I just felt like I wasn't "whole", somehow. It didn't seem right, or natural, or properly-ordered. In a sense, part of my masculinity has been amputated.

I do not believe I will "get better" - but what is true wholeness and healing, anyway? Do you expect every tear to be wiped away now, in this veil of tears, before All Things are fulfilled? The Lord Jesus healed lepers, restored ears, stopped the flow of blood, and many other things... but what was the purpose of ending these physical maladies? It was to show us His great power to save part of us that's even more mysterious and wondrous than our body: our immortal soul. If Jesus Christ our God miraculously heals the body, He can heal the soul. Does this mean removing the spiritual malady that causes us pain? Sometimes, yes... and sometimes no.

The Lord first heals us of our ancient spiritual state that is sinful, cursed, and dead. The deepest human spirit is indwelt by the Holy Spirit via Baptism and the sacraments. Only slowly, through the whole span of our lives, does the Holy Spirit radiate throughout our soul - and only if we allow Him to do it by acts of love and charity. He leaves us with crosses and seemingly-unbearable things in order to humble us. Without temptations, no one could be saved. I, for one, would be incredibly proud and arrogant without my crosses, always forgetting God and the necessity of relying on Him for all my life, light, joy, and being.

I can't stand being out in public because there are so many beautiful, handsome men. I suspect it's often the same for straight men and beautiful women. Do not ask God to take away that which, in a sense, makes you to be You. All is taken up by Christ, and all is saved and healed in the love of Charity. Just wait. :)

Though I do not suffer from SSA, I have my own thorns to endure. I would like to thank you for this post, as I think it will benefit everyone who reads it.

For what it is worth, it helped me.
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#18
(09-26-2014, 10:12 PM)JubilateDeo Wrote: Though I do not suffer from SSA, I have my own thorns to endure. I would like to thank you for this post, as I think it will benefit everyone who reads it.

For what it is worth, it helped me.

Praise the Lord.
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#19
(09-26-2014, 10:12 PM)JubilateDeo Wrote:
(09-26-2014, 01:07 PM)Heorot Wrote: Miles Immaculatae, you have my sympathy and respect.

As a soldier in the "Faithful SSA Catholic" Army (admittedly a small squadron), I have fought, battled, warred, and contended with this bastard of an issue for many years. Even when I was an atheist I just felt like I wasn't "whole", somehow. It didn't seem right, or natural, or properly-ordered. In a sense, part of my masculinity has been amputated.

I do not believe I will "get better" - but what is true wholeness and healing, anyway? Do you expect every tear to be wiped away now, in this veil of tears, before All Things are fulfilled? The Lord Jesus healed lepers, restored ears, stopped the flow of blood, and many other things... but what was the purpose of ending these physical maladies? It was to show us His great power to save part of us that's even more mysterious and wondrous than our body: our immortal soul. If Jesus Christ our God miraculously heals the body, He can heal the soul. Does this mean removing the spiritual malady that causes us pain? Sometimes, yes... and sometimes no.

The Lord first heals us of our ancient spiritual state that is sinful, cursed, and dead. The deepest human spirit is indwelt by the Holy Spirit via Baptism and the sacraments. Only slowly, through the whole span of our lives, does the Holy Spirit radiate throughout our soul - and only if we allow Him to do it by acts of love and charity. He leaves us with crosses and seemingly-unbearable things in order to humble us. Without temptations, no one could be saved. I, for one, would be incredibly proud and arrogant without my crosses, always forgetting God and the necessity of relying on Him for all my life, light, joy, and being.

I can't stand being out in public because there are so many beautiful, handsome men. I suspect it's often the same for straight men and beautiful women. Do not ask God to take away that which, in a sense, makes you to be You. All is taken up by Christ, and all is saved and healed in the love of Charity. Just wait. :)

Though I do not suffer from SSA, I have my own thorns to endure. I would like to thank you for this post, as I think it will benefit everyone who reads it.

For what it is worth, it helped me.

Yes, thank-you. I think you eloquently put a lot of what I was thinking to myself but couldn't materialize into words.

We all have things we wish God would heal or fix. I prayed for years that God would heal my daughter, only to discover I was praying for the wrong thing. Turns out, I needed to pray for the strength to accept her the way she is. I suspect those suffering from SSA, in some respects, need to come to that sort of place - not one necessarily of change, but of acceptance. As long as one lives by the tenants of the Church, I have to believe that there is a reason why so many among you are afflicted, a reason that will ultimately glorify God and show His compassion, mercy, and love for us.

But yeah, those who are opposite-sex attracted deal with many of the same issues. For example, attraction to another man isn't turned off by wedding vows. It's still disordered, and it still needs to be coped with, prayed about and opportunities for sin still need to be avoided. Being OSA isn't a cure-all, even when it's perceived as "the cure".
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