Latin will no longer be used as the official record of the Synod
#11
(10-07-2014, 12:02 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Well to be fair hardly anyone in the Church is familiar with Latin anymore, including, perhaps, the majority of bishops,cardinals and priests even within the Vatican. While the Council did not explicitly call for the Church to reduce Latin to the point of near irrelevance the Church did little to help continue to educate its clerics and its faithful in the Latin language.  Latin is making a comeback but it's really at the grassroots level, a bottom up affair.  Perhaps Francis is just facing the reality head on, namely, that most bishops today are as familiar with Latin today as most of us are with Mandarin Chinese or Sanskrit.

Indeed I've talked to seminarians who just have like one Latin class, on their whole seminarian lives. And apparently Mass in Latin is for them as distant as rocket science for most of us.
But facing the problem head on would be what Benedict did: encourage Latin.
I hope Latin will survive. We should do our part and learn Latin ourselves.
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#12
The point is, there has to be golden standard.  How does one argue canon law with someone of another tongue if both are not required to resolve in the Latin?  Does the current Pope even have the authority to change the lingua franca of Church documents and decrees?  And to announce a change this radical on the opening day of the synod... While debate is raging over something that will not affect the majority of us as Catholics, a wildly radical change that will affect the whole Church is carried right through the open gate in broad daylight.  Will all arguments now be resolved in Italian, or any other convenient language?  Will prior encyclicals now be referenced only in Italian?  Because how do we compare them with new Italian documents?  This can't be legal, even for a Pope. 
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#13
(10-07-2014, 12:15 PM)Landless Laborer Wrote: The point is, there has to be golden standard.  How does one argue canon law with someone of another tongue if both are not required to resolve in the Latin?  Does the current Pope even have the authority to change the lingua franca of Church documents and decrees?  And to announce a change this radical on the opening day of the synod... While debate is raging over something that will not affect the majority of us as Catholics, a wildly radical change that will affect the whole Church is carried right through the open gate in broad daylight.  Will all arguments now be resolved in Italian, or any other convenient language?  Will prior encyclicals now be referenced only in Italian?  Because how do we compare them with new Italian documents?  This can't be legal, even for a Pope.

Well, any why Italian, I wonder? Why not Spanish, or English, or French, or any other language that is spoken by a large number of the Church? I doubt all Bishops and Cardinals speak fluent Italian.

I know from translating back and forth from English to French that language is funny, and what is precise in one language may not have an equivalent expression in another. What then? It goes back to that organic development thing - at least with Latin it's fixed.

Just look at what the Protestants do with Scripture, relying on the venacular. Will we start falling into the same trap?
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#14
(10-07-2014, 12:13 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote:
(10-07-2014, 12:02 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Well to be fair hardly anyone in the Church is familiar with Latin anymore, including, perhaps, the majority of bishops,cardinals and priests even within the Vatican. While the Council did not explicitly call for the Church to reduce Latin to the point of near irrelevance the Church did little to help continue to educate its clerics and its faithful in the Latin language.  Latin is making a comeback but it's really at the grassroots level, a bottom up affair.  Perhaps Francis is just facing the reality head on, namely, that most bishops today are as familiar with Latin today as most of us are with Mandarin Chinese or Sanskrit.

Indeed I've talked to seminarians who just have like one Latin class, on their whole seminarian lives. And apparently Mass in Latin is for them as distant as rocket science for most of us.
But facing the problem head on would be what Benedict did: encourage Latin.
I hope Latin will survive. We should do our part and learn Latin ourselves.


Oh I actually have faith that it will survive. I think that there is a grassroots renaissance of Catholicism in general today that includes a  desire for Latin, beautiful art and architecture,traditional piety etc.  I'm definitely trying to learn Latin by praying the Monastic Diurnal and other prayers in Latin or with Latin/English. I'm not all that academically inclined but I'm picking it up just by immersion.
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#15
(10-07-2014, 12:36 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Oh I actually have faith that it will survive. I think that there is a grassroots renaissance of Catholicism in general today that includes a  desire for Latin, beautiful art and architecture,traditional piety etc.  I'm definitely trying to learn Latin by praying the Monastic Diurnal and other prayers in Latin or with Latin/English. I'm not all that academically inclined but I'm picking it up just by immersion.
Latin will survive as a museum piece then? If one wanted to read medieval manuscripts for a PhD in the caroline miniscules? It wouldn't be an official "live" language of the church.

Go to the official 2014 synod webpage:
http://synod14.vatican.va/

Notice a million editions of the news, in a million languages.
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#16
His acts deny Veterum Sapientia.
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#17
(10-07-2014, 02:18 PM)1seeker Wrote:
(10-07-2014, 12:36 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Oh I actually have faith that it will survive. I think that there is a grassroots renaissance of Catholicism in general today that includes a  desire for Latin, beautiful art and architecture,traditional piety etc.  I'm definitely trying to learn Latin by praying the Monastic Diurnal and other prayers in Latin or with Latin/English. I'm not all that academically inclined but I'm picking it up just by immersion.
Latin will survive as a museum piece then? If one wanted to read medieval manuscripts for a PhD in the caroline miniscules? It wouldn't be an official "live" language of the church.

Go to the official 2014 synod webpage:
http://synod14.vatican.va/

Notice a million editions of the news, in a million languages.

Mine point that we should work for the survival of Latin and his point that there are grassroots groups that perpetuate Latin is precisely in order to avoid that. Its not all up to the Pope.
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#18
(10-07-2014, 12:34 PM)PrairieMom Wrote:
(10-07-2014, 12:15 PM)Landless Laborer Wrote: The point is, there has to be golden standard.  How does one argue canon law with someone of another tongue if both are not required to resolve in the Latin?  Does the current Pope even have the authority to change the lingua franca of Church documents and decrees?  And to announce a change this radical on the opening day of the synod... While debate is raging over something that will not affect the majority of us as Catholics, a wildly radical change that will affect the whole Church is carried right through the open gate in broad daylight.  Will all arguments now be resolved in Italian, or any other convenient language?  Will prior encyclicals now be referenced only in Italian?  Because how do we compare them with new Italian documents?  This can't be legal, even for a Pope.

Well, any why Italian, I wonder? Why not Spanish, or English, or French, or any other language that is spoken by a large number of the Church? I doubt all Bishops and Cardinals speak fluent Italian.

I know from translating back and forth from English to French that language is funny, and what is precise in one language may not have an equivalent expression in another. What then? It goes back to that organic development thing - at least with Latin it's fixed.

Just look at what the Protestants do with Scripture, relying on the venacular. Will we start falling into the same trap?
Some Protestants go to the extreme of claiming the 1611 Authorized Version of the King James Bible is the gold standard to which all translations must be measured.  This is just one flawed solution to the problems of sola scriptura in a world of thousands of organic languages and dialects. 
Having a sacred universal language in which to express and resolve all truth is just one of the self-affirming features of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (which I'm confident will be returned to by the next Pope if the world lasts that long).  If anyone thinks Catholic councils and synods are messy like sausage making, i.e., no one wants to see the process, wait until the Orthodox church has her "eighth" ecumenical council...the one they keep threatening to have.  Intuitively the hierarchs must realize harsh light of the world stage will expose the epic internal chaos, especially when they have to go to the Latin.  :grin:  Heck I doubt there will ever be consensus on a date or place, much less universal truth.   
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#19
This shows that the Pope himself is deficient in Latin. Lamentable!

Neopelagianus
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#20
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/0...O220141006

Quote:Pope ditches Latin as official language of Vatican synod
VATICAN CITY | Mon Oct 6, 2014 1:13pm EDT
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VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - In a break with the past, Pope Francis has decided that Latin will not be the official language of a worldwide gathering of bishops at the Vatican.

A cardinal made the announcement at the start of the first working day of the two-week assembly, known as a synod, where about 200 Roman Catholic bishops from around the world are discussing themes related to the family..

Italian, the lingua franca of the Vatican, would become the synod's official language, he said.
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