Francis intends to go all the way
#31
(11-09-2014, 04:37 AM)Oldavid Wrote:
(11-09-2014, 03:38 AM)Cetil Wrote: I totally disagree with Francis' approach myself but I don't think changing doctrine is the goal. But if pastoral practices become too liberalized then the doctrine may remain but of what relevance is it?
Chaos will be the more likely outcome. A reset to the seventies. C.
Hmm. I don't know where you're coming from, Cetil.

There is no possibility that "doctrine" (the Faith) can change anywhere, or anyhow.

Agreed. I posted that because Renatus Frater said this in the OP: "Here's a very scary article on how people close to the Pope are advocating deep irreversible, doctrinal changes "

C.
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#32
Hmmm. Let those
Quote: people close to the Pope
come on this forum and argue their nonsense with the great unwashed. I have no love or tolerance for pompous asses who like to magnify themselves by name-dropping and quoting sages out of context.
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#33
In my opinion, the NO will die or at least start its rapid descent within a couple decades. When all of the VII generation begins dying off, the Church will shrink and shrink. CMTV talked about it, the so called "head count" Catholics. Most of these are those who were around during the VII era and tend to be much more liberal. Many just show up to Mass every Sunday even if they don't truly believe in the faith. That's not to say there aren't plenty conservative and highly religious people in that generation, but the polls clearly show where the average Catholic even those who are church going stand. They will start dwindling away and what will be left is the younger generation... most of whom have abandoned the church as they weren't buying the "Church of Nice." Most of the younger Catholics who stuck around became more interested in their religion and thanks to the Internet and such, found tradition. Even those who still attend the NO are still more conservative than the average Catholic of the older generation. You're going to see tradition prevail and the NO dying.

Whenever I talk to a younger priest they always show interest and openness to the EF. At the very least they show interest in making the NO more conservative in its approach. I see younger priests who don't separate their fingers after consecration, I see younger priests who prefer to use the Canon over all of the other EP, who would love to do the Mass ad orientem, but aren't allowed, among other things. They are out there. This is all in the AD of NY too. I talked to one seminarian who served at my wedding and he was telling me how he serves at the EF as often as he can. It will come brethren, it will come.
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#34
(11-09-2014, 10:39 AM)GangGreen Wrote: In my opinion, the NO will die or at least start its rapid descent within a couple decades. When all of the VII generation begins dying off, the Church will shrink and shrink. CMTV talked about it, the so called "head count" Catholics. Most of these are those who were around during the VII era and tend to be much more liberal. Many just show up to Mass every Sunday even if they don't truly believe in the faith. That's not to say there aren't plenty conservative and highly religious people in that generation, but the polls clearly show where the average Catholic even those who are church going stand. They will start dwindling away and what will be left is the younger generation... most of whom have abandoned the church as they weren't buying the "Church of Nice." Most of the younger Catholics who stuck around became more interested in their religion and thanks to the Internet and such, found tradition. Even those who still attend the NO are still more conservative than the average Catholic of the older generation. You're going to see tradition prevail and the NO dying.

Whenever I talk to a younger priest they always show interest and openness to the EF. At the very least they show interest in making the NO more conservative in its approach. I see younger priests who don't separate their fingers after consecration, I see younger priests who prefer to use the Canon over all of the other EP, who would love to do the Mass ad orientem, but aren't allowed, among other things. They are out there. This is all in the AD of NY too. I talked to one seminarian who served at my wedding and he was telling me how he serves at the EF as often as he can. It will come brethren, it will come.


I don't disagree but I don't think it'll be that easy to turn back the clock. Like it or not Vatican II and its official papally sanctioned interpretations  are, for better or worse,woven into the very fabric of the Church. I would say rather than Vatican II being interpreted in line with our Catholic patrimony what actually happened was our patrimony was renovated in line with Vatican II. We now have:

1. 1983 code of Canon Law
2. New Mass (the normative missal, the standard, I might add)
3. New Sacramental Rites
4. New Breviary with almost no relation to the old (LOTH)
5. New Book of Blessings

All these things are permeated with the spirit of the Council. They are now the standard by which everything is judged and interpreted. They are not just going to die out. They are now part of the very lifeblood of the modern Church.

We have traditional options but they are just that, options. Pre Vatican II stuff is no longer the standard by which things are judged in the Church outside trad circles.

Certainly there is merit in the idea that these liberals will die out and that more will choose the traditional options but quite frankly I don't see the Church ever just dropping every aspect of the post conciliar reforms. It's a pipe dream.

The most that might happen is that future priests and laity choose the traditional options and somewhere down the line things get a bit more conservative. In our lifetimes we will never, ever see a total end to the Novus Ordo and the other novelties of Vatican II. It's just not going to happen.mim convinced of it. Things are looking up on a grassroots level but let's get realistic here.
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#35
God forbid!
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#36
(11-09-2014, 12:02 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Certainly there is merit in the idea that these liberals will die out and that more will choose the traditional options but quite frankly I don't see the Church ever just dropping every aspect of the post conciliar reforms. It's a pipe dream.

When I was young, no one could have imagined that the Church would be in the shape She is in.  If "the reforms" could happen, and they did, then they can also be undone, and they will.  The present generation has to pass, and a new, committed group of Catholics, albeit much smaller in number, will emerge.  They just need a reforming pope, with some like-minded prelates and clergy, to take the helm, but it is surely going to take time. 

"Novus Ordo Catholicism" is disappearing in places like Holland and France.  The only Catholics left will be real Catholics, much fewer in number but actual believers.

http://centurioweblog.blogspot.ch/2014/0...-2050.html
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#37
I think as the Church shrinks and the liberal post VII clergy dies off, you will see the rise of the traditional priests and orders. It will pave the way for groups like the SSPX to come back into the fold. I personally thing give it 20 to 30 years and you'll see a drastic change.
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#38
(11-09-2014, 06:03 AM)Oldavid Wrote: Hmmm. Let those
Quote: people close to the Pope
come on this forum and argue their nonsense with the great unwashed. I have no love or tolerance for pompous asses who like to magnify themselves by name-dropping and quoting sages out of context.

They will only have a short time. They will soon find out that "God is a God of surprises"

C.
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#39
(11-09-2014, 06:03 AM)Oldavid Wrote: Hmmm. Let those
Quote: people close to the Pope
come on this forum and argue their nonsense with the great unwashed. I have no love or tolerance for pompous asses who like to magnify themselves by name-dropping and quoting sages out of context.

:thumb:
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#40
(11-06-2014, 02:23 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: Here's a very scary article on how people close to the Pope are advocating deep irreversible, doctrinal changes (not merely pastoral changes, as has been the line). Admittedly, these are just three things some crazy Argentinians are talking; but until last year Bergoglio was just one crazy Argentinian bishop ready for retirement.
If this is what the Pope indeed has in mind then I don't know what else to think except that he has taken the place of God... and we all know what that means.

Should we start praying for God to deal with the Pope or is that blasphemous?

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/11...ounds.html



Here's a quote from the article
Quote:[In] the same discussion, somewhat later. Who speaks now is a priest with regular, or rather, daily, contact with the Holy Father. "The last thing he told me before I came was to pray so that he can effect profound and definitive changes in the Church in such a way that they can never again be modified."

Didn't the pope make some noise about possibly resigning not long ago? Why would he be doing what he's doing if he has the idea of leaving his office?  He's almost acting like he's a lame-duck pope with his off the cuff comments.
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