Burked finally removed (demoted)
#21
(11-09-2014, 10:50 AM)SCG Wrote:
(11-09-2014, 03:15 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: I miss Benedict...

I do too.

Me too!!! But let's remember to keep the big picture in mind and not despair. Christ is our King, and He's ultimately in charge and these foolish antics won't go on forever.
"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
Reply
#22
The news of the Cardinal's demotion saddens me greatly, however it does not surprise me. In fact it only serves to validate my intuition that the papacy is a flawed model, since it does not prevent contestation of various decisions, despite their erroneous nature. Once a liberal precedent has been established, there will be no restoration, since it will be impossible to undermine.
As for the comments, I see a rising trend of ignoring the pope without renouncing communion. As a Latin I have contemplated this issue many times. However, I believe that if one cannot accept what the pope does, why remain under his jurisdiction? The structure of the Latin church ensures that the papacy retains its central power, for better or worse. For me Orthodoxy is a logical conclusion since one has access to all Mysteries (sacraments), etc. yet there are no more games of „loyalty to Rome without loyalty to the specific pope". Furthermore, as an Orthodox, there is no threat of the above mentioned central intervention. If one acknowledges Christ as head of the Church, moving East merely „cuts out the middle man" of the troublesome papacy. To me the recent developments taking place in Rome, exemplifying the fallacy of the papacy's centralism, have served to finalise my decision to seek spiritual direction in the Orthodox Church once I return to Poland in the spring.
Reply
#23
(11-09-2014, 06:12 PM)Klemens Wrote: The news of the Cardinal's demotion saddens me greatly, however it does not surprise me. In fact it only serves to validate my intuition that the papacy is a flawed model, since it does not prevent contestation of various decisions, despite their erroneous nature. Once a liberal precedent has been established, there will be no restoration, since it will be impossible to undermine.
As for the comments, I see a rising trend of ignoring the pope without renouncing communion. As a Latin I have contemplated this issue many times. However, I believe that if one cannot accept what the pope does, why remain under his jurisdiction? The structure of the Latin church ensures that the papacy retains its central power, for better or worse. For me Orthodoxy is a logical conclusion since one has access to all Mysteries (sacraments), etc. yet there are no more games of „loyalty to Rome without loyalty to the specific pope". Furthermore, as an Orthodox, there is no threat of the above mentioned central intervention. If one acknowledges Christ as head of the Church, moving East merely „cuts out the middle man" of the troublesome papacy. To me the recent developments taking place in Rome, exemplifying the fallacy of the papacy's centralism, have served to finalise my decision to seek spiritual direction in the Orthodox Church once I return to Poland in the spring.

I don't think there's a single post from you that is not about polemics of West vs. East. Its really not my place but I'm inclined to quote the rules of this forum here:
Quote:Neither interreligious debating nor attempts to "convert" us are allowed. You can ask sincere questions about traditional Catholicism in the "Apologetics & Questions about Traditional Catholicism?" forum -- but no barraging; ask a few questions at a time. If you don't want to know the answer but are trying to "score points" or "convert" us, don't bother!
If you think all of us are wrong and Orthodoxy is right, keep the preaching to yourself.
Reply
#24
(11-09-2014, 06:31 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote:
(11-09-2014, 06:12 PM)Klemens Wrote: The news of the Cardinal's demotion saddens me greatly, however it does not surprise me. In fact it only serves to validate my intuition that the papacy is a flawed model, since it does not prevent contestation of various decisions, despite their erroneous nature. Once a liberal precedent has been established, there will be no restoration, since it will be impossible to undermine.
As for the comments, I see a rising trend of ignoring the pope without renouncing communion. As a Latin I have contemplated this issue many times. However, I believe that if one cannot accept what the pope does, why remain under his jurisdiction? The structure of the Latin church ensures that the papacy retains its central power, for better or worse. For me Orthodoxy is a logical conclusion since one has access to all Mysteries (sacraments), etc. yet there are no more games of „loyalty to Rome without loyalty to the specific pope". Furthermore, as an Orthodox, there is no threat of the above mentioned central intervention. If one acknowledges Christ as head of the Church, moving East merely „cuts out the middle man" of the troublesome papacy. To me the recent developments taking place in Rome, exemplifying the fallacy of the papacy's centralism, have served to finalise my decision to seek spiritual direction in the Orthodox Church once I return to Poland in the spring.

I don't think there's a single post from you that is not about polemics of West vs. East. Its really not my place but I'm inclined to quote the rules of this forum here:
Quote:Neither interreligious debating nor attempts to "convert" us are allowed. You can ask sincere questions about traditional Catholicism in the "Apologetics & Questions about Traditional Catholicism?" forum -- but no barraging; ask a few questions at a time. If you don't want to know the answer but are trying to "score points" or "convert" us, don't bother!
If you think all of us are wrong and Orthodoxy is right, keep the preaching to yourself.
I apologise if I came off as attempting to proselytise (which I have no intention of doing). I merely noted a trend in the comments and offered my own experience of the matter. The „polemics" arose only because of my own continued inability to find any counters to my desire for conversion to the East. I will be clearer that my comments merely express my experience of the matter, however, please understand that the East-West question bears great relevance to me at this point in my life, especially in light of recent events.
Reply
#25
(11-09-2014, 07:07 PM)Klemens Wrote:
(11-09-2014, 06:31 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote:
(11-09-2014, 06:12 PM)Klemens Wrote: The news of the Cardinal's demotion saddens me greatly, however it does not surprise me. In fact it only serves to validate my intuition that the papacy is a flawed model, since it does not prevent contestation of various decisions, despite their erroneous nature. Once a liberal precedent has been established, there will be no restoration, since it will be impossible to undermine.
As for the comments, I see a rising trend of ignoring the pope without renouncing communion. As a Latin I have contemplated this issue many times. However, I believe that if one cannot accept what the pope does, why remain under his jurisdiction? The structure of the Latin church ensures that the papacy retains its central power, for better or worse. For me Orthodoxy is a logical conclusion since one has access to all Mysteries (sacraments), etc. yet there are no more games of „loyalty to Rome without loyalty to the specific pope". Furthermore, as an Orthodox, there is no threat of the above mentioned central intervention. If one acknowledges Christ as head of the Church, moving East merely „cuts out the middle man" of the troublesome papacy. To me the recent developments taking place in Rome, exemplifying the fallacy of the papacy's centralism, have served to finalise my decision to seek spiritual direction in the Orthodox Church once I return to Poland in the spring.

I don't think there's a single post from you that is not about polemics of West vs. East. Its really not my place but I'm inclined to quote the rules of this forum here:
Quote:Neither interreligious debating nor attempts to "convert" us are allowed. You can ask sincere questions about traditional Catholicism in the "Apologetics & Questions about Traditional Catholicism?" forum -- but no barraging; ask a few questions at a time. If you don't want to know the answer but are trying to "score points" or "convert" us, don't bother!
If you think all of us are wrong and Orthodoxy is right, keep the preaching to yourself.
I apologise if I came off as attempting to proselytise (which I have no intention of doing). I merely noted a trend in the comments and offered my own experience of the matter. The „polemics" arose only because of my own continued inability to find any counters to my desire for conversion to the East. I will be clearer that my comments merely express my experience of the matter, however, please understand that the East-West question bears great relevance to me at this point in my life, especially in light of recent events.

I've seen the same old "things are SOOOO much better in the East" argument time and time again on another forum.  It really doesn't impress.  Even if you were right, you wouldn't get the converts you want that way.  There are those in the west who love the Church and their Rite in spite of the fact that there are also those in it who apparently don't.

I believe Pope Francis is the true pope, but I'm not particularly impressed with him.  He doesn't stand out to me as someone who has profound insights that will help me grow in holiness.  I don't exactly DISLIKE him, but I certainly don't have the same enthusiasm for him that I had for Pope Benedict.  When I first saw that Pope Benedict was elected, I was so excited I couldn't get back to my dorm room fast enough to check the news after a classmate had told me a German had just been elected pope (now, after hearing the things Cardinal Kasper has said recently, I shudder to think of how things would have turned out if he'd been the German standing on that balcony nine years ago instead of Pope Benedict).  Pope Benedict's election was and is one of the happiest days of my life.  I was also crushed when I found out he was resigning- it literally felt like someone had just punched me in the stomach.  My reaction when Pope Francis was elected was very different.  I had no idea who Cardinal Bergoglio was.  I knew his last name was Italian, and that he had chosen the name Francis.  Would he be a real Francis- a "go and rebuild my church," stigmatist, great lover of the Eucharist and the priesthood Francis?  Or would he be a hippie Francis?  I don't know.  Honestly, I don't really care that much.  Why?  Because I know he can't change the doctrines of the Church.  I know that the "social justice" garbage my diocese was fed for 30 years is just that- it's garbage, and I'm certain that it'll eventually be taken out.  I know what the Church teaches about faith, morals, the liturgy, and the sacraments.  I also know what the Church teaches about social concern- that we should have it, but it should be kept in its proper place, lest we fall into the heresy of materialism.

I found my faith in a diocese that had been fed the sewage of "social justice" and the "seamless garment" for 30 years.  I saw the restoration after a wonderful, holy bishop came- it was like seeing wildflowers bloom in the ashes of a burnt forest.  The old things that had been killed off during the 30 years before didn't come back, but new things- new, beautiful things- came and flourished.  I somehow found my faith before things got better.  When I came to the Church seeking spiritual and moral counsel, all I got was endless talk on "helping the poor."  I was a young college student, disabled and on state assistance, and didn't have a cent to my name- I was the poor, and they did nothing for me.  I didn't need endless talk about helping people like me in this life- I needed preparation for the next, and I didn't get it from them.  Thankfully, I found what I needed within the small pocket of orthodoxy that existed here, and which sustained my faith until that storm finally passed here.

The Church didn't seem to be even a shadow of what it once was, yet I still joined it.  For some reason, God has allowed the Church to be trashed from both the inside and the outside.  There's a whole book in the Bible that's all about that- my favorite book- the book of Lamentations.  That doesn't mean it isn't the Church.  That just means that God is seeing fit to chastise it now.  Why?  I don't know.  Maybe people started to take things for granted,  Maybe things looked great on the outside years ago, but were really bad on the inside- the people perpetuating evil were just good at hiding it until they decided they didn't have to hide it anymore.  The most foul theologians of the 1970's were ordained in the 1950's or earlier.  They learned their theology from someone.  They were admitted to the seminary by someone.  They moved up the ecclesiastical hierarchy to the point that they were bishops, cardinals, and other prelates of distinction that awarded them a great deal of influence over the Church- their faith was formed in the early to mid 1900's, the good ole' days that many people here long to have again.  Well, something must have been going on that let them win the esteem that got them into their positions.

I am concerned about the problems in the Church, but I can't let them destroy my faith.  My faith is mine- and no one but God can take away my love for the Eucharist, for Mary, for the Saints, for the Papacy, for the Sacraments, and for the Tradition of the Church- because they are mine- I cultivate them within myself to the point that what others do doesn't matter so much.  Now, I'm certainly outraged when evil is committed- and especially when clergy perpetuate it or are silent about it when they shouldn't be.  Even so, I need not let their sin obstruct my path to holiness.  I need not let their sin distract me from Christ and His Church.
Reply
#26
Beautiful post, Credidi Propter. You have the mindset and heart of Christ that I ought to have had above. God bless you!
Reply
#27
Something keeps me Catholic even though I have been deeply tempted by the East time and the again. I have zero love for the current Pope nor do I even see the necessity of the papacy at all in light of the last half century, and yet something keeps me Catholic. Perhaps should I get to Heaven I will finally understand just why the Papacy was necessary. Today I believe it only as an act of the will in the darkness of faith despite it all. For me it's more just a knowing, an intuition that despite the utter dereliction of the Church at the hands of the Popes and bishops in recent decades this is still the true Church and that both salvation and holiness are available within her.

What helps me remain Catholic is to have a spiritual life that does not depend on what happens in ecclesiastical political circles or even what happens at the local Novus Ordo. It's mostly a tenacious clinging to the Benedictine Office, the Jesus Prayer, the Rosary, Confession and worthy Communion once every month or two and a devotion to the Real Presence. 

The Church has given us all we need to fortify ourselves even if we have to erect a beautiful temple in our homes and in our hearts and retreat there sometimes.
Reply
#28
(11-10-2014, 09:16 AM)Heorot Wrote: Beautiful post, Credidi Propter. You have the mindset and heart of Christ that I ought to have had above. God bless you!

I second that; beautiful post,  but do take one issue with his last thought.

My faith is mine- and no one but God can take away my love for the Eucharist, for Mary, for the Saints, for the Papacy, for the Sacraments, and for the Tradition of the Church- because they are mine- I cultivate them within myself to the point that what others do doesn't matter so much.

God will never take your faith away from you! However we can do that or can allow it to happen through sin--repetitive unconfessed sin is a real faith killer.
"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
Reply
#29
Has the Pope given any explanation as to why he did this? Granted, I know he doesn't owe us one, but surely he reads the news and sees that everyone is calling this a demotion. You would think that he would stick up for the Cardinal if there was a logical explanation for this move.
Reply
#30
(11-10-2014, 11:02 AM)damooster Wrote: Has the Pope given any explanation as to why he did this? Granted, I know he doesn't owe us one, but surely he reads the news and sees that everyone is calling this a demotion. You would think that he would stick up for the Cardinal if there was a logical explanation for this move.

Popes move capable prelates out of their positions when those prelates do not express a focus on the things which those Popes desire to focus on.

The current Holy Father is not arbitrary or sentimental in every thing he does. He has a reason to get rid of Cardinal Burke. That prelate must have a fundamental difference in focus from this Pope. It only seems logical.

I don't personally have any faith that the Pope will explain this action. He doesn't seem to be very good at articulating his logic when it comes to changes in the ecclesiastical bureaucracy.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)