So we sang "A Mighty Fortress" at church yesterday
#31
(11-12-2014, 11:26 AM)DJR Wrote:
(11-12-2014, 02:59 AM)Silouan Wrote:
(11-11-2014, 09:50 PM)DJR Wrote:
(11-11-2014, 05:36 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(11-11-2014, 03:37 PM)DJR Wrote:
(11-11-2014, 02:44 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(11-11-2014, 02:27 PM)Silouan Wrote: I don't completely understand. Are the hymns not prescribed?
No.  And that, imho, is part of the problem.  And which is why it's NOT problematic with the Divine Liturgy of St. John.

The liturgy itself may be okay, although I dislike the new wording, but some of the melodies are horrible.  And we do have some cheesy hymns. And at my parish, they take Roman Rite hymns and adapt them to some of the melodies, which make the hymn very strained.  Cantors did that last Sunday; it sounded bad.

??? ??? ???

Why on earth would they do *that*?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?  If that happened at a Byzantine Catholic Church that I went to, I'd feel duty-bound and compelled to open my big mouth and complain in no uncertain terms to the priest, the cantor, and anyone else with ears to hear!!!  There is absolutely NO REASON whatsoever to insert RC hymns into the Divine Liturgy!!  NONE!!  In fact, where would they even be inserted, anyway??  (I take it that the parish you attend IS Eastern Catholic, right?)

Epiphany parish, Roswell, Georgia, Eparchy of Passaic. 

The hymns are in the normal places that we sing our regular hymns:  beginning and end of the Liturgy.  On the Sunday of the 7th Ecumenical Council, we sang Faith of Our Fathers, but it was sung to the normal tune of that hymn.

Last Sunday, I forget what the name of the hymn is, but it was sung at the end and adapted to one of the melodies used in the Liturgy. 

Oh, I just remembered.  It was Now Thank We all our God.

We also sing the usual American songs on the national holidays, America the Beautiful being the most often.  I don't know why it is done.  There are many other, more beautiful, hymns that we can sing.



Normal places? What do you mean the beginning and end? I don't understand.

We sing a hymn at the beginning of the Liturgy while Father incenses.  And we sing a hymn at the end of the Liturgy after Father closes the doors.  Beginning and end.  Those are the normal places for hymns, at least for us.  And of course there are hymns during distribution of the Holy Mystery.

I've been to the Orthodox DL much more recently than a ByzCath DL, so...I guess things may have "changed" some...unfortunately.  What I remember from BOTH however is that the communion hymns varied depending upon the feast day and most often were "Receive the Body of Christ; taste the fountain of immortality.  Alleluia!  Alleluia!  Alleluia!" or "Praise the Lord from the heavens..."  or something from here or here.  Never anything even approaching a Roman Catholic hymn, let alone anything protestant.  Have things deteriorated SO much in the Eastern Catholic Church or is it perhaps just a few parishes here and there...like yours?
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#32
(11-12-2014, 02:20 PM)J Michael Wrote: I've been to the Orthodox DL much more recently than a ByzCath DL, so...I guess things may have "changed" some...unfortunately.  What I remember from BOTH however is that the communion hymns varied depending upon the feast day and most often were "Receive the Body of Christ; taste the fountain of immortality.  Alleluia!  Alleluia!  Alleluia!" or "Praise the Lord from the heavens..."  or something from here or here.  Never anything even approaching a Roman Catholic hymn, let alone anything protestant.  Have things deteriorated SO much in the Eastern Catholic Church or is it perhaps just a few parishes here and there...like yours?

I would venture a guess it's just my parish regarding the weirder hymns. 

To say that Greek Catholics never sing Roman Catholic hymns would not be an accurate assessment though.  Every parish I've ever been a member of or visited does so during Christmas time.  We sing Latin and English hymns that are Roman Catholic, along with some of the more famous Christmas hymns written by Protestants.  Joy to the World was written by a Protestant.  You will hear that in my parish during Christmas season.
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#33
(11-12-2014, 12:33 PM)Silouan Wrote: The Liturgy begins with "Blesses is the Kingdom." So are you singing before that?

Yes, during the incensing of the Church by the priest. 

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#34
(11-12-2014, 06:22 PM)DJR Wrote:
(11-12-2014, 02:20 PM)J Michael Wrote: I've been to the Orthodox DL much more recently than a ByzCath DL, so...I guess things may have "changed" some...unfortunately.  What I remember from BOTH however is that the communion hymns varied depending upon the feast day and most often were "Receive the Body of Christ; taste the fountain of immortality.  Alleluia!  Alleluia!  Alleluia!" or "Praise the Lord from the heavens..."  or something from here or here.  Never anything even approaching a Roman Catholic hymn, let alone anything protestant.  Have things deteriorated SO much in the Eastern Catholic Church or is it perhaps just a few parishes here and there...like yours?

I would venture a guess it's just my parish regarding the weirder hymns. 

To say that Greek Catholics never sing Roman Catholic hymns would not be an accurate assessment though.  Every parish I've ever been a member of or visited does so during Christmas time.  We sing Latin and English hymns that are Roman Catholic, along with some of the more famous Christmas hymns written by Protestants.  Joy to the World was written by a Protestant.  You will hear that in my parish during Christmas season.

Okay.  No argument with that.  One could consider the Christmas season to be "exceptional" and some of the RC and Prot Christmas carols and hymns are actually a part of the fabric of American culture.  But, are you singing RC or Prot hymns on a weekly basis?
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#35
(11-12-2014, 06:29 PM)DJR Wrote:
(11-12-2014, 12:33 PM)Silouan Wrote: The Liturgy begins with "Blesses is the Kingdom." So are you singing before that?

Yes, during the incensing of the Church by the priest.



I guess Catholic Divine Liturgy must just be different. As it is celebrated in the Orthodox Church there is no great censing at the beginning of the liturgy. There is a great censing during matins and matins leads directly into the Divine Liturgy with no break. But there is no point for an ad libbed hymn at the end of matins. The Great Doxology is always sung because that's the end of the service. You wouldn't happen to know of a video online so I can better understand what you are talking about?
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#36
(11-12-2014, 08:59 PM)J Michael Wrote: Okay.  No argument with that.  One could consider the Christmas season to be "exceptional" and some of the RC and Prot Christmas carols and hymns are actually a part of the fabric of American culture.  But, are you singing RC or Prot hymns on a weekly basis?

No, not weekly, but I would say we do it regularly. 

For instance, without doubt, on Thanksgiving we will sing America the Beautiful.  On national holidays (e.g., near 4th of July) we sing that type of stuff.  When I lived in the north we didn't do that.

The non-Christmas Roman Rite hymns are a fairly recent phenomenon.  One of the cantors is originally Roman Rite, and he has taken some Roman Rite hymns and put them to Slavonic melodies.  Rather strained.
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#37
(11-12-2014, 10:14 PM)Silouan Wrote: I guess Catholic Divine Liturgy must just be different. As it is celebrated in the Orthodox Church there is no great censing at the beginning of the liturgy. There is a great censing during matins and matins leads directly into the Divine Liturgy with no break. But there is no point for an ad libbed hymn at the end of matins. The Great Doxology is always sung because that's the end of the service. You wouldn't happen to know of a video online so I can better understand what you are talking about?

We don't have matins in my parish, and the prothesis is prepared privately by the priest sometime prior to the start of the liturgy.  I don't know when he does that.  I've never witnessed him do it, and I've been there fairly early sometimes.  It's already done ahead of time.  Liturgy starts with the priest incensing the Church.

I found this online.  It shows the clerics entering the church (well, it's actually a wine cellar I think) and the beginning of the liturgy, with the incensing of the "church" while the people sing a hymn.

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#38
(11-12-2014, 11:36 PM)DJR Wrote:
(11-12-2014, 10:14 PM)Silouan Wrote: I guess Catholic Divine Liturgy must just be different. As it is celebrated in the Orthodox Church there is no great censing at the beginning of the liturgy. There is a great censing during matins and matins leads directly into the Divine Liturgy with no break. But there is no point for an ad libbed hymn at the end of matins. The Great Doxology is always sung because that's the end of the service. You wouldn't happen to know of a video online so I can better understand what you are talking about?

We don't have matins in my parish, and the prothesis is prepared privately by the priest sometime prior to the start of the liturgy.  I don't know when he does that.  I've never witnessed him do it, and I've been there fairly early sometimes.  It's already done ahead of time.  Liturgy starts with the priest incensing the Church.



Ah that explains why I couldn't figure out what you were talking about. The procession at the beginning and the censing are not actually part of the Divine Liturgy. I guess they must have adopted some Latin practices.  :)
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#39
(11-12-2014, 10:14 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(11-12-2014, 06:29 PM)DJR Wrote:
(11-12-2014, 12:33 PM)Silouan Wrote: The Liturgy begins with "Blesses is the Kingdom." So are you singing before that?

Yes, during the incensing of the Church by the priest.



I guess Catholic Divine Liturgy must just be different. As it is celebrated in the Orthodox Church there is no great censing at the beginning of the liturgy. There is a great censing during matins and matins leads directly into the Divine Liturgy with no break. But there is no point for an ad libbed hymn at the end of matins. The Great Doxology is always sung because that's the end of the service. You wouldn't happen to know of a video online so I can better understand what you are talking about?

Could it have an origin in a difference in Rusyn vs. Greek practice? After all, the Slavic tradition does not serve Matins before the DL, since it forms part of the All-Night Vigil served on Saturday evening. Traditionally, the Third and Sixth Hours would be served before DL; whether this is done in most Slavic Orthodox parishes I can't say - besides my EC parish, I've only attended DL at a Greek Orthodox parish and Vigil at an OCA parish.
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#40
(11-13-2014, 08:14 AM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(11-12-2014, 10:14 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(11-12-2014, 06:29 PM)DJR Wrote:
(11-12-2014, 12:33 PM)Silouan Wrote: The Liturgy begins with "Blesses is the Kingdom." So are you singing before that?

Yes, during the incensing of the Church by the priest.



I guess Catholic Divine Liturgy must just be different. As it is celebrated in the Orthodox Church there is no great censing at the beginning of the liturgy. There is a great censing during matins and matins leads directly into the Divine Liturgy with no break. But there is no point for an ad libbed hymn at the end of matins. The Great Doxology is always sung because that's the end of the service. You wouldn't happen to know of a video online so I can better understand what you are talking about?

Could it have an origin in a difference in Rusyn vs. Greek practice? After all, the Slavic tradition does not serve Matins before the DL, since it forms part of the All-Night Vigil served on Saturday evening. Traditionally, the Third and Sixth Hours would be served before DL; whether this is done in most Slavic Orthodox parishes I can't say - besides my EC parish, I've only attended DL at a Greek Orthodox parish and Vigil at an OCA parish.



I'm very familiar with both. After seeing the video I understand. I didn't know what was being talked about because that procession before the liturgy in the video doesn't occur in Orthodox practice. It looks like the beginning of a Latin Mass so I assume that's where they got the practice from.
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