The Mass is not the Faith: The Faith is greater than the Mass.
#11
(11-18-2014, 12:35 AM)John Lane Wrote:
(11-17-2014, 10:01 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: A bishop has the power to tell the priests of his diocese not to offer anything but the Novus Ordo Mass. 

Would you care to prove this assertion?

The opinion adopted by thinking traditionalists (especially priests) in the 1970s was that Paul VI had not changed the law from Quo Primum, and therefore nobody was legally permitted to offer the New Mass.  Paul VI certainly didn't make any law permitting it, and a fortiori he didn't oblige anybody to use the new missal.  Instead, he ordered the new missal published and relied upon the bishops to impose it.  But any priest could - and many did - simply refuse on the basis that they had to obey the pope (Pius V) when the local bishop contradicted him.

You can review the question in Fr. Wathen's book, The Great Sacrilege.

The proof for this position, as Fr. Wathen gives it, is in the texts of promulgation of the new missal.  He wrote in 1971.  Since his time we now have two further proofs.  The first is Summorum Pontificum, which specifically rejects the idea that the true Mass was forbidden by Paul VI (which of course was one of the claims made by countless bishops when imposing the New Mass illegally on their priests). 

The second is the practice of the Church (or the "church" if you prefer).  From the practice of the Church, the proof is, I think, irrefutable:  No priest has ever, anywhere, been tried by an ecclesiastical court for refusing to offer the New Mass.  If Paul VI imposed it, some priest, somewhere, in the past forty-five years, would have been cited for breaching his law.  But this hasn't happened, and the reason is obvious once you examine the texts - there is no law to cite!

Any attempt to bring such a ase would result in total embarrassment for the Prosecution. 

Anyway, it would be wonderful if a priest such as one of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate or Fr Michael Rodriguez would take a stand on the law and openly demand that the law be cited which justifies the use of the New Missal.  What will happen is what has happened every other time this question has been brought to the point of testing - the Modernists will back down and use alternative methods to achieve their ends (e.g. moving a priest for unrelated - invented - reasons).  Fr Michael Rodriguez has the advantage that his bishop has already, as I understand it, explicitly removed him for this reason, so his bishop won't be able to change his reasons.



A bishop may not be able to legally force a priest to offer the New Mass but he can certainly do everything in his power to isolate and destroy a priest who will not follow his orders. A bishop has many things he can do to make sure priests in his diocese shape up or ship out. Even if legally speaking he cannot force any priest---especially after Summorum Pontificum---to offer the New Rite exclusively he can threaten, isolate and probably even completely destroy a priest by various means ( accusations of molestation, mental illness, sending him to a desk job, making him go to psychological counseling etc.).

Today a priest must carefully weigh his options and decide if offering the Latin Mass in certain dioceses is worth it or not, it could cost him his mental health, his reputation and his ability to remain a priest with a parish at all. As the Father Rodriguez and and FFI debacle show, the bishops weild immense authority, and even if they can't legally get a priest or a group of priests to do something they will find ways to get what they want by hook or by crook. 

One reason many priests in the mainstream today do not offer the Latin Mass is because the ecclesiastical climate is so hostile to it. A seminarian is probably told in various ways that being "too traditional" will be the swiftest way to attract unwanted attention from his bishop and a sure end to his vocation. The peer pressure has got to be intense,especially  when a priest is alone in a parish stacked by feminists and liberals who donate money to the diocese and have the ear of the bishop it's easier to go along to get along.

Perhaps I was careless in my words Mr. Lane, you may be right that a bishop cannot legally enforce the Novus Ordo but I think he still can use his authority (an an abusive way of course) to bludgeon priests into obedience.
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#12
FB, I agree.  What you describe is technically "tyranny" or despotism.  It was the means used to impose the New Mass and it is the essential nature of the government of the Conciliar church.  The rule of law - especially the rule of the law of faith! - has been totally lost.
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#13
(11-18-2014, 10:48 AM)Oldavid Wrote: Mmmm. With some qualifications, maybe.

The Faith can exist without the Mass... thousands of estranged Christians are witness to that.
I don't agree. If thousands of Christians exist without assisting at the Mass, it's only because the Mass is always happening somewhere. The Mass continues the sacrifice of Christ and will go on until the end of the world. The Mass and the sacraments are what hold the world and our Catholic faith together--and keep us in a state of grace. Grace is the life of the Church; it's essential. If the Mass and the sacraments were to cease, it would be like ripping the heart out of the Mystical Body of Christ.

(11-18-2014, 10:48 AM)Oldavid Wrote: I take exception to the notion that there is "traditional" Catholicism and some other sort of Catholicism. There is only Catholic Christianity (always the same in every time and place) and the plethora of other "beliefs" that are more or less perverse imitations. Perhaps it would be better to say that the Mass is the complete and unsurpassable gift of the Faith. Mass is meaningless without the Faith.
All so called "Christianity" that isn't authentically Catholic isn't really Christian, either. In other words, nonCatholics are correct only to the extent in which they are in agreement with (big T) Traditional Catholic doctrine. Have you ever seen the picture of estranged Christians who are tenuously hanging onto the Barque via a rope? It's like that. I suppose it's better than nothing, but far from ideal.
"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
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