Marriage according to Pope Francis
#11
The conclusion in your quote does not necessarily follow the statement; civil union is not the only avenue through which to secure an individual's healthcare. In fact, the Holy Father specifically chose the word, correctly, "cohabiting" couples and does not at any time change or question the implicit disapproval of cohabitation. Therefore, the most generous reading of that quote, which is the one we should take until more facts become clear, is that the Pope is saying that, at the moment, states use civil unions as a means to the end of ensuring everyone is given healthcare and other benefits usually reserved for couples. The Holy Father believes that those benefits should be more widely extended. The Holy Father does not approve of cohabitation. Therefore, the Holy Father would like to see a change in the way that certain benefits are accorded within the framework of the state.
"Punishment is justice for the unjust." Saint Augustine of Hippo
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#12
(11-20-2014, 01:23 AM)RyanPatrick Wrote: The conclusion in your quote does not necessarily follow the statement; civil union is not the only avenue through which to secure an individual's healthcare. In fact, the Holy Father specifically chose the word, correctly, "cohabiting" couples and does not at any time change or question the implicit disapproval of cohabitation. Therefore, the most generous reading of that quote, which is the one we should take until more facts become clear, is that the Pope is saying that, at the moment, states use civil unions as a means to the end of ensuring everyone is given healthcare and other benefits usually reserved for couples. The Holy Father believes that those benefits should be more widely extended. The Holy Father does not approve of cohabitation. Therefore, the Holy Father would like to see a change in the way that certain benefits are accorded within the framework of the state.

Agreed.  Re-reading the article posted by John, especially the exact quotes by Pope Francis, it is clear that he is not saying in this interview that he supports civil unions.

That said, there are reports he was in favor of civil unions when he was in Argentina. 
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#13
(11-20-2014, 01:23 AM)RyanPatrick Wrote: Therefore, the most generous reading of that quote, which is the one we should take until more facts become clear, is that the Pope is saying that, at the moment, states use civil unions as a means to the end of ensuring everyone is given healthcare and other benefits usually reserved for couples. The Holy Father believes that those benefits should be more widely extended. The Holy Father does not approve of cohabitation. Therefore, the Holy Father would like to see a change in the way that certain benefits are accorded within the framework of the state.

This is not clear at all: "The Holy Father does not approve of cohabitation."  What you mean by that is that he disapproves.  What he means by his own words - you are summarising them - is that he is not going to positively approve of cohabitation - he's going to carefully avoid ever hurting the feelings of anybody who has a disordered life.  This is approval by stealth, and it ain't very stealthy!

Look at the articles in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/20/world/....html?_r=1& and NCR: http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/cau...gay-unions and note that he actually proposed that the Church support "civil unions" for sodomites as an alternative to "gay marriage." 

Quote:But behind the scenes, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, who led the public charge against the measure, spoke out in a heated meeting of bishops in 2010 and advocated a highly unorthodox solution: that the church in Argentina support the idea of civil unions for gay couples.

Now, that tells us what he thought then.  We cannot assume he has the same ideas now.  But now, he's saying the same thing.  http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/05...?hpt=hp_t2

It's very clever, and it's not orthodox.  He isn't saying, let's teach the faithful that cohabitation is not sinful.  That would cause trouble, and in any case he may not actually believe that himself.  He's saying something different.  He's saying that marriage is marriage, and the world is full of people who don't live according to the Church's teaching and it's terrible that as a result they bear some negative consequences, so the State is acting well in trying to remove any possible disabilities from these people.  The Church does not oppose this approach.  It only opposes it if and when the State seeks to redefine marriage. 

That's what he's saying.  So the State can give legal recognition to cohabitation, even of sodomites, and the Church will not oppose this.  And the motive is nuts: Sin has consequences, so the State should act to mitigate those consequences.  It's like saying, let's put trampolines at the bottom of all the cliffs, and set up hospitals just behind them, while carefuly avoiding ever pointing out to the lemmings that leaping off cliffs is a stupid idea.

Anyway, it's just a way for the Church to abdicate its responsibility to teach, to be the city seated on the mountain.  It's putting her light under  a bushel.
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#14
I hope and pray Pope Francis does not support civil unions.  So far I have only read second hand reports, including the NY Times article, that Cardinal Bergoglio (Pope Francis ) supported civil unions. 

Do we have any direct, hard proof?  A quote from Bergoglio saying the government should support civil unions, or maybe a quote from a priest or bishop stating they heard him make such a statement.

If he did really say this at the Argentinian bishop's conference, I would think that there would be some kind of accessible, public record of what he said, and that it should not be so hard for a journalist to report this.  I would think those in the Church in support of civil unions would have dug up this evidence and made it head-like news.  Or some traditionalists who are opposed to civil unions but afraid that present or future popes could try to change Church doctrine. 
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#15
(11-20-2014, 11:38 PM)christulsa123 Wrote: Do we have any direct, hard proof?  A quote from Bergoglio saying the government should support civil unions, or maybe a quote from a priest or bishop stating they heard him make such a statement.

Hmmm, well these reports are out there and he's not denying that they represent his views.  He's not even ignoring them and saying the opposite.  His silence on that front, taken with what he said in the Corriere della Sera interview, make his agenda clear enough.
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