High Carb "diet"
#1
Just finished reading Dr. John McDougall's "The Starch Solution", which turns on it's head the whole low-carb, high protein feeding frenzy.  It was absolutely fascinating, and apart from some of his "political" views that he parenthetically inserts here and there, and some of his comments about some supplements, it rings quite true to me.  I'm thinking of giving it a try after the holidays (don't wanna miss out on all that yummy turkey and fixins  :grin: :grin:!).  Anybody else familiar with this?

Basically, what he advocates is a sensible, healthy vegan diet, based on a foundation of first starchy vegetables (rice, potatoes, whole grains, etc.), accompanied by  other veggies, grains, and legumes.  You know, like many rural Asian diets where people eat a lot of rice (or wheat or sweet potatoes) accompanied by some other veggies, (and if they can afford it, a little fish or animal protein.)
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#2
Interesting.  Most healthy cultures eat high carb diets, with little sugar or processed food.  At the same time, there are cultures that eat more fat and protein than carbs and are also healthy.  Then you have cultures like America that eat high carbs/high fat/processed foods and are obese and in poor health.



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#3
(11-26-2014, 03:46 PM)J Michael Wrote: Basically, what he advocates is a sensible, healthy vegan diet, based on a foundation of first starchy vegetables (rice, potatoes, whole grains, etc.), accompanied by  other veggies, grains, and legumes.  You know, like many rural Asian diets where people eat a lot of rice (or wheat or sweet potatoes) accompanied by some other veggies, (and if they can afford it, a little fish or animal protein.)

This is ideological, with selective evidence in support. A lot like Dean Ornish -- who was also an ideologue (Hindu, I believe).  I never could or would eat this way.

Lower carb -- aka, "leaning Paleo" -- has saved my life.  I've lost 150 pounds, kept it off for almost a year now, and never get sick.

Good luck my friend.

P.S.  I am just finishing a marvelous chicken salad with canola mayo and plenty of sliced red grapes.  Plenty of salt and pepper.

Clare
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#4
(11-29-2014, 02:03 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote:
(11-26-2014, 03:46 PM)J Michael Wrote: Basically, what he advocates is a sensible, healthy vegan diet, based on a foundation of first starchy vegetables (rice, potatoes, whole grains, etc.), accompanied by  other veggies, grains, and legumes.  You know, like many rural Asian diets where people eat a lot of rice (or wheat or sweet potatoes) accompanied by some other veggies, (and if they can afford it, a little fish or animal protein.)

This is ideological, with selective evidence in support. A lot like Dean Ornish -- who was also an ideologue (Hindu, I believe).  I never could or would eat this way.

Lower carb -- aka, "leaning Paleo" -- has saved my life.  I've lost 150 pounds, kept it off for almost a year now, and never get sick.

Good luck my friend.

P.S.  I am just finishing a marvelous chicken salad with canola mayo and plenty of sliced red grapes.  Plenty of salt and pepper.

Clare

No, it goes beyond ideology.  Are you even familiar with the details of the program (for lack of a better word at the moment)?  No?  Then check out McDougall's book, "The Starch Solution", and also check out the book and film "Forks Over Knives."  Having worked in the health and nutrition fields for over 30 years, it all makes perfect sense to me and what amazes me is how I missed it for so long.  Also check out "The China Study" by Campbell.  And there's a crap-load of evidence.  Actually, isn't all evidence "selective" in one way or another, even for the low-carb diet, which never made tons of sense to me??  And yes, people can lose lots of weight eating low carbs and high protein.  They can also poison themselves doing so--from the animal proteins and by-products.

It's ALL about a whole-food, plant-based (yes, vegan, if you will :O--never thought old meat lovin' me would do *that*!) diet, eliminating processed foods, all animal products, oils, etc.  What it's NOT about is stuffing your face with diet sodas (or any sodas!), potato chips, fat, and beer.  The "political" and "ideological" aspects of it I ignore.  The health benefits alone are worth investigating it.
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#5
You can and should eat whole foods on a lower carb diet:  vegetables, an occasional sweet potato, brown or wild rice, fruit.  I already do that.  Whole foods have very much been staples for me.  I avoid processed foods.

I also eat generous portions of animal protein (chicken, beef, pork, fish, eggs) and lots of fat -- of all kinds -- but especially healthy fats like olive oil, avocadoes, and canola mayo, along with almond butter.  Oh yeah -- every day I have nuts, pumpkin seeds, dried peas, etc.

I am utterly convinced that this is the right approach for me.  Again, it has improved my life beyond all my expectations.  But why don't you try the high carb approach, strictly, and report here on the results over time?  I just ask that you be both strict in your adoption of it and honest and diligent in reporting the results.
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#6
(11-30-2014, 09:02 AM)Clare Brigid Wrote: You can and should eat whole foods on a lower carb diet:  vegetables, an occasional sweet potato, brown or wild rice, fruit.  I already do that.  Whole foods have very much been staples for me.  I avoid processed foods.

I also eat generous portions of animal protein (chicken, beef, pork, fish, eggs) and lots of fat -- of all kinds -- but especially healthy fats like olive oil, avocadoes, and canola mayo, along with almond butter.  Oh yeah -- every day I have nuts, pumpkin seeds, dried peas, etc.

I am utterly convinced that this is the right approach for me.  Again, it has improved my life beyond all my expectations.  But why don't you try the high carb approach, strictly, and report here on the results over time?  I just ask that you be both strict in your adoption of it and honest and diligent in reporting the results.

Glad to hear you're eating healthily!  One of the major factors, though, that is discussed by the folks I've referenced is that we in the West, particularly, get waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy too much protein and waaaaayyyyyy, waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy too much of that in the form of animal protein, which, along with fats, is according to them, the major source of ill health and many, many diseases, especially heart disease, diabetes (yes, diabetes!!), and many auto-immune or other degenerative diseases.  But, their works speak for themselves.  Do you have an open mind?  For a long time, I did not, at least about this.  Things have changed  :grin:!  I recommend that you at least get one of the works mentioned and peruse it.  The "Forks Over Knives" film (you can get it from Amazon) is really an eye-opener and a great introduction!

Both my wife and I are going to give it a shot.  One week at a time.  I go for some blood work this week, so that ought to give a baseline for things like CRP, glucose, cholesterol, triglycerides, etc.  As we progress (and if we stick to it!), I'll keep you posted on how we're doing.  And, if the results aren't positive or we decide to can it, I promise, I'll lie about it :grin: :grin: :grin:!  Seriously, why would I be anything other than honest about it?  It's not like I have any kind of vested interest in the program's proponents or am a purveyor of their books, or hold stock or anything... :eyeroll:
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#7
And the discussion continues!  :)

J Michael makes some good points.  There are studies that show problems with too much protein or fat, or the benefits of  higher carbs like they eat in China.  Clare makes some good points that you have to avoid ideology, selective science, and that low carb/high fat can be good for you.

I would make the disctinction between either a high carb/low fat/vegetarian-leaning diet and a low carb/high fat/animal food-leaning diet and the Standard American Diet (S.A.D.).  The S.A.D. is the one most American follow (junk food) or that is recommended by many nutritionists that tend to demonize animal protein and fat, and neglect emphasizing whole foods and avoiding refined carbs.  Too many dieticians and doctors pragmatically and simplistically emphasize calories, problems with fat and cholesterol.  I think some of the problems with the SAD approach is the $ interests of the American food industry, and the utlilitarian approach the medical establishment and US government tends to take to promote public health.  But their approach is failing, looking at the declining health of the American population.  I saw one study that predicted by 2040 almost all Americans will be either overweight or obese.

So I think the merits of both approaches (low carb vs high carb) should be considered.  For some people low carb may not make sense or not work (though I think if you read Dr. Atkins' books you will know otherwise), for some people (I think thats a lot of people), a high carb, low fat, calorie counting diet is a rollercoaster that doesn't work.

J Michael,  what does the book you mentioned say is so healthy about starches?  Especially a diet in which you eat a lot of starchy foods?  ???
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#8
(11-30-2014, 05:42 PM)christulsa123 Wrote: And the discussion continues!  :)

J Michael makes some good points.  There are studies that show problems with too much protein or fat, or the benefits of  higher carbs like they eat in China.  Clare makes some good points that you have to avoid ideology, selective science, and that low carb/high fat can be good for you.

I would make the disctinction between either a high carb/low fat/vegetarian-leaning diet and a low carb/high fat/animal food-leaning diet and the Standard American Diet (S.A.D.).  The S.A.D. is the one most American follow (junk food) or that is recommended by many nutritionists that tend to demonize animal protein and fat, and neglect emphasizing whole foods and avoiding refined carbs.  Too many dieticians and doctors pragmatically and simplistically emphasize calories, problems with fat and cholesterol.  I think some of the problems with the SAD approach is the $ interests of the American food industry, and the utlilitarian approach the medical establishment and US government tends to take to promote public health.  But their approach is failing, looking at the declining health of the American population.  I saw one study that predicted by 2040 almost all Americans will be either overweight or obese.

So I think the merits of both approaches (low carb vs high carb) should be considered.  For some people low carb may not make sense or not work (though I think if you read Dr. Atkins' books you will know otherwise), for some people (I think thats a lot of people), a high carb, low fat, calorie counting diet is a rollercoaster that doesn't work.

J Michael,  what does the book you mentioned say is so healthy about starches?  Especially a diet in which you eat a lot of starchy foods?  ???

First of all, the best and most complete answer to your question is in either McDougall's book or the Forks Over Knives book and/or film.  It's not so much that starch is so fantastically good for you as it is that you can get all the nutrients you need (protein, carb, fat, fiber, vitamins, and minerals etc., etc) from a *whole food*, plant based diet, without having to eat any animal products (meat, fish, dairy), which, they claim, is the source of so much illness.  I'm not going to regurgitate (pun intended! :grin:) the books here.  Like I said, they speak for themselves.  Look them up on Amazon, read the blurbs, the reviews.  You can also "look inside" to get a sense of what's in there.  Then, if you don't want to buy them, maybe check to see if your library has or can get them.  McDougall also has a website, drmcdougall.com and here's the FOK website, http://www.forksoverknives.com/.

As for Atkins, MANY people (including some of the folks I've worked with and for for many years, and myself) have come to the conclusion that what he advocated and how he advocated it actually was quite dangerous.  Yeah, you may have lost weight, but how healthy were you??  I don't mean to sound nasty, but do some research! 

The Forks Over Knives or McDougall approach or whatever you choose to call it is not a diet, rather a radical lifestyle change.  Don't worry, I have my doubts and some concerns (how will I survive without all that protein,  for example), and I haven't swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.  But it makes sense to me in a way that the low-carb diet never, ever did, so we're gonna try it.  (Just by way of anecdote, we haven't eaten dairy for 2 days now, and my wife, plagued with Lupus, RA, chronic Lyme, OA, etc., mentioned to me earlier that she actually forgot to take one of her pain meds today--because her pain was almost 50% diminished!!  Now, correlation is not causation, but it is rather "coincidental", don't you think?)  Don't worry, I'll keep you posted!!
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#9
J Michael, let me inform you about the low carb diet because I think, not to be nasty either, that unlike your reading of a high carb diet, you are badly informed.  It increases healthy cholesterol, decreases bad cholesterol, decreases triglycerides, decreases insulin levels (and therefore cures diabetes, pre-diabetes, hypoglycemia), radically increases daily physical energy, radically increases mental health in terms of mental clarity, etc, etc. And I can speak FIRST HAND that this is a fact.  Dr. Atkins, and now a network of low carb doctors across the world, use it to treat many illnesses.  So you are mistaken that it is just about losing weight, and does not improve health.  I would be glad to post the overwhelming evidence from medical journals.





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#10
(12-01-2014, 03:39 AM)christulsa123 Wrote: J Michael, let me inform you about the low carb diet because I think, not to be nasty either, that unlike your reading of a high carb diet, you are badly informed.  It increases healthy cholesterol, decreases bad cholesterol, decreases triglycerides, decreases insulin levels (and therefore cures diabetes, pre-diabetes, hypoglycemia), radically increases daily physical energy, radically increases mental health in terms of mental clarity, etc, etc. And I can speak FIRST HAND that this is a fact.  Dr. Atkins, and now a network of low carb doctors across the world, use it to treat many illnesses.  So you are mistaken that it is just about losing weight, and does not improve health.  I would be glad to post the overwhelming evidence from medical journals.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across with snark.  I've worked in health and nutrition for over 30 years (I was a practicing homeopath for much of that time) and am fairly well informed about low-carb diets, and the benefits of them.  Probably more than most folks.  I'm also aware of some of the drawbacks and potential dangers.  And, I don't want to get into a pissing contest about it all.  But, it's not the be-all and end-all of eating plans; not a panacea by any means.  And neither is a whole foods, plant-based (high carb) way of life! 

What's abundantly clear to me is that we are all going to die and we are all going to die of *something*.  In the meantime, we can take some measures to perhaps prolong our time here (though, I've got to admit that sometimes I wonder "why?" about that), and to improve the quality of that time.  So...low-carb or high-carb or no-carb; low-fat, high-fat, no-fat...we're going to become ill---every single one of us--illness is not optional, it is inevitable--and we are going to leave this life and meet our Maker.

My wife and I will be trying out the whole food, plant-based (high carb) plan, based on the research and studies and anecdotal evidence available for that, and I'll keep you posted of our progress, if any.  If it doesn't work, I'll let you know that, too.  And, we may "tweak" it here and there according to our preferences and whims. :)  But we will give it a good go!
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