Modern morality (The worst sin of our time)
#1
Perhaps I am wrong but there seem to be certain unspoken "sins" -- and a certain unspoken morality -- in the Catholic church that I never learned.

When I started trying to go to talks about various issues, at the local Catholic churches (I am in Southern California) I was surprised to find that I could not attend -- because I was too old.  The Catholic church here appears to be divided into intensely patrolled age segregated groups -- "Youth", "Young Adult", "Adult", "Older Adults".  There wasn't a great deal of concern if an older woman attended a younger group, but an older man would immediately be confronted and forcibly removed.  I attended a few of the "Adult" meetings but they did not have the talks , and speakers like the "Young Adults" group did, and often times very few people would attend.  I was told that even fewer people attended the "Older Adult" get-togethers.  I am not terribly socially skilled so I suggested that they combine the older group with the adult group, to which people responded with shock and anger... "Do you want to date those older women?!!", "No I don't even want to date these women, they are all divorcee's with kids." (The person would not speak with me again).

So I married a younger woman.  My wife is 15 years younger than me.  And we just had a son.  He is five months old.  To say that the fact that I married a younger woman bothers other Catholic's would be putting it mildly.  I argue "Don't worry it is the first marriage for both of us and we both come from good families that don't divorce.  But rather than this putting people at ease it only further enrages them "There is nothing wrong with divorce!!!!!", "Some of the best people I know are divorced!!", "An annulment is exactly the same as never getting married!!!!".

People, and the Catholic church seem to have become very accepting of divorce, remarriage, unmarried couples, and homosexuality, but older men marrying younger women seems to be a huge unspoken no-no.  The only exception I can find to this rule is if the older man is very wealthy -- a doctor, lawyer, or CEO.  Certainly not a middle class guy!

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#2
That is deeply troubling. A parish should ideally be a family. If that can't be managed, at the very least, the opposite shouldn't be enforced! Absolute madness.
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#3
(12-14-2014, 04:54 PM)Southerncaliforniaguy Wrote: (snip)
People, and the Catholic church seem to have become very accepting of divorce, remarriage, unmarried couples, and homosexuality, but older men marrying younger women seems to be a huge unspoken no-no.  The only exception I can find to this rule is if the older man is very wealthy -- a doctor, lawyer, or CEO.  Certainly not a middle class guy!

Wow! I can't imagine feeling the need to say about your marriage "Don't worry it is the first marriage for both of us and we both come from good families that don't divorce" ! Who are these busybodies who are so full of themselves they think they're in the position of judging you like that? Holy mackerel! Oh, man, if someone were to get snooty in that way with me, I wouldn't be able to resist the smart-ass sort of response. I really have a big problem with people who are "judgy" like that... And that person who asked about whether you wanted to date "those older women" -- what business is it of his in the first place? It sounds as if he's the one who sees attending theology talks as the equivalent of hanging out at a singles bar. Man!

Is this a TLM or a NO parish? All of those age divisions make it seem like a NO parish to me. I don't know what the heck's up with all the divisiveness some parishes have going on. The NO as typically offered is pretty inherently divisive. It used to be that any Roman Catholic in the world, no matter what languages he knows, could go to Mass with any other Catholic and they'd both be on the same page because of the common use of Latin. Now, people are divided up, with the Filipinos having Mass at 8am, the Koreans having their Mass at 10am, and the English-speakers having their at noon or whatever. All that diversity doesn't serve the whole "brotherhood of man" thing the multi-cultural types push. Ironically.

So, is it so that you and your wife can't attend the same talks because of your different ages? If so, that sucks. If you're not attending the TLM, find one if you can! Or get one going in your parish (see http://www.fisheaters.com/tlmsetup.html ). Or move! LOL Or find an Eastern rite parish!

-- but wherever the heck you go, if I were you, I'd tell the busybodies to piss off. Definitely don't let them get under your skin and bother you. It's not worth it.

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#4
As someone who also lives in Southern California (Orange County) I have noticed that many of the groups in the Novus Ordo world are very divided just as the OP states. there are a lot of the divisions that were stated.

I think it is a bit silly. What is the problem with being in a group with older people as well as younger people. I belong to the group the Legion of Mary here in Anaheim and I am the youngest person. I don't mind learning from the wisdom of older people. Also what is the problem with dating younger women? It was very common for the husband to be much older than the wife.

Also since you stated you are in Southern California, we have an all men's group that has been around for about 10 years called the Brotherhood of Saint Dismas if you are interested (Talking about divisions- this group is divided itself lol...  but in a practical way)

http://hsdo.org/

We also just started a sisterhood as well solely for women
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#5
(12-15-2014, 12:27 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: I really have a big problem with people who are "judgy" like that... And that person who asked about whether you wanted to date "those older women" -- what business is it of his in the first place? It sounds as if he's the one who sees attending theology talks as the equivalent of hanging out at a singles bar. Man!

Right; these people are putting their own flaws on show for all to see by acting that way. Why would it even occur to someone to think that the primary reason someone attends church events is to find a date?
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#6
(12-15-2014, 12:27 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(12-14-2014, 04:54 PM)Southerncaliforniaguy Wrote: (snip)
People, and the Catholic church seem to have become very accepting of divorce, remarriage, unmarried couples, and homosexuality, but older men marrying younger women seems to be a huge unspoken no-no.  The only exception I can find to this rule is if the older man is very wealthy -- a doctor, lawyer, or CEO.  Certainly not a middle class guy!

Wow! I can't imagine feeling the need to say about your marriage "Don't worry it is the first marriage for both of us and we both come from good families that don't divorce" ! Who are these busybodies who are so full of themselves they think they're in the position of judging you like that? Holy mackerel! Oh, man, if someone were to get snooty in that way with me, I wouldn't be able to resist the smart-ass sort of response. I really have a big problem with people who are "judgy" like that... And that person who asked about whether you wanted to date "those older women" -- what business is it of his in the first place? It sounds as if he's the one who sees attending theology talks as the equivalent of hanging out at a singles bar. Man!

Is this a TLM or a NO parish? All of those age divisions make it seem like a NO parish to me. I don't know what the heck's up with all the divisiveness some parishes have going on. The NO as typically offered is pretty inherently divisive. It used to be that any Roman Catholic in the world, no matter what languages he knows, could go to Mass with any other Catholic and they'd both be on the same page because of the common use of Latin. Now, people are divided up, with the Filipinos having Mass at 8am, the Koreans having their Mass at 10am, and the English-speakers having their at noon or whatever. All that diversity doesn't serve the whole "brotherhood of man" thing the multi-cultural types push. Ironically.

So, is it so that you and your wife can't attend the same talks because of your different ages? If so, that sucks. If you're not attending the TLM, find one if you can! Or get one going in your parish (see http://www.fisheaters.com/tlmsetup.html ). Or move! LOL Or find an Eastern rite parish!

-- but wherever the heck you go, if I were you, I'd tell the busybodies to piss off. Definitely don't let them get under your skin and bother you. It's not worth it.

The Masses for the different language groups seem to divide the church community up.  I can totally understand that people prefer to attend Mass in their native language, but it seems to sort of become a "cultural" thing as well.  I know hispanics who speak perfect english, but will only attend the spanish Mass.  And I have heard hispanics -- who attend the main english Mass -- accused of "trying to be White".  The old latin Mass was much better.
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#7
Modern morality all stems from contraception. Take away contraception and the whole conversation changes.

Contraception takes away the sanctity of sexual intercourse. People view sex as something that can be done casually. This leads to fornication being a normal and accepted behavior. It gives way to the idea that sex is mainly for pleasure. When this happens people don't view marriage as a requirement for sex. Adultery is easier to get away with. Sex is detached from marriage. Pornography and masturbation become accepted practices even in marriages. People start to not view marriage as a permanent institution. Divorce becomes more acceptable. People see it as a normal occurrence. And so we are at this point today where marriage is in shambles.

The above also is true for homosexual sex. When sex is only for pleasure and not for the marital purpose of unity and procreation, then people see no reason why homosexuals can't do it as well. There's no difference to the common person.

You can add in the acceptance of abortion as well. Sex = pleasure. Pregnancy = undesired outcome. If birth control fails -> abortion. People say freedom of choice. The choice was made when you had sex. What they want is freedom from responsibility of their actions because sex is for pleasure and not for making new lives.

Talk about families. Women putting off having children until they're in their 30s. More children born with defects and disabilities due to this. People see having children as a burden. Family sizes become extremely small. Children get raised by day care centers and such rather than by their parents. Divorce becomes normal and children are growing up with one parent or a second parent who is not their biological parent.

There are various other issues. Everything starts with contraception being accepted by the population at large. It's why people, even Catholics, have become accepting of every perversion and aspect of today's so called modern morality.
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#8
But what defense against ANY of this do we have if natural law or religious arguments aren't allowed into the debate? We can argue from a pragmatic point of view that maybe sex within marriage can lead to less disease and happy healthy living but aside took that what do we have?
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#9
(12-19-2014, 08:48 AM)Southerncaliforniaguy Wrote: The Masses for the different language groups seem to divide the church community up.  I can totally understand that people prefer to attend Mass in their native language, but it seems to sort of become a "cultural" thing as well.  I know hispanics who speak perfect english, but will only attend the spanish Mass.  And I have heard hispanics -- who attend the main english Mass -- accused of "trying to be White".  The old latin Mass was much better.

At least in the US, the old Latin Mass didn't really seem to do a better job of this.  Instead of being at the same church, but having their own Masses, each ethnic group just had their own church.  In my town, for example, there were four Catholic churches within a short walk of each other--Irish, Italian, Polish, and German (the Polish and German were less than a block away from each other and you can see each from their front steps).  A couple more blocks away was the black parish.  There was just as much tension, if not more, between, say Irish and Italians, as there is now between hispanics and whites. :shrug:
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#10
(12-14-2014, 04:54 PM)Southerncaliforniaguy Wrote: Perhaps I am wrong but there seem to be certain unspoken "sins" -- and a certain unspoken morality -- in the Catholic church that I never learned.

When I started trying to go to talks about various issues, at the local Catholic churches (I am in Southern California) I was surprised to find that I could not attend -- because I was too old.  The Catholic church here appears to be divided into intensely patrolled age segregated groups -- "Youth", "Young Adult", "Adult", "Older Adults".  There wasn't a great deal of concern if an older woman attended a younger group, but an older man would immediately be confronted and forcibly removed.  I attended a few of the "Adult" meetings but they did not have the talks , and speakers like the "Young Adults" group did, and often times very few people would attend.  I was told that even fewer people attended the "Older Adult" get-togethers.  I am not terribly socially skilled so I suggested that they combine the older group with the adult group, to which people responded with shock and anger... "Do you want to date those older women?!!", "No I don't even want to date these women, they are all divorcee's with kids." (The person would not speak with me again).

So I married a younger woman.  My wife is 15 years younger than me.  And we just had a son.  He is five months old.  To say that the fact that I married a younger woman bothers other Catholic's would be putting it mildly.  I argue "Don't worry it is the first marriage for both of us and we both come from good families that don't divorce.  But rather than this putting people at ease it only further enrages them "There is nothing wrong with divorce!!!!!", "Some of the best people I know are divorced!!", "An annulment is exactly the same as never getting married!!!!".

People, and the Catholic church seem to have become very accepting of divorce, remarriage, unmarried couples, and homosexuality, but older men marrying younger women seems to be a huge unspoken no-no.  The only exception I can find to this rule is if the older man is very wealthy -- a doctor, lawyer, or CEO.  Certainly not a middle class guy!

I'm sorry that you have had to experience this. I don't need to tell you that there is nothing at all wrong with the fact that there is a 15 age difference between you and your wife. I'm inspired by your example in that you both are each other's first spouse and come from good families.
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