NYC St. Patricks Parade
#21
update:

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#22
(03-20-2015, 04:08 PM)Azygos Wrote: I think that he is right in refusing to publicly criticize the Pope, in most circumstances. Do tell how you are to teach people that we are to submit to the Pope (the Vicar of Christ) and that he has universal jurisdiction over the Church, while you are constantly criticizing him publicly? You men are trying to teach others that God commands everyone to be in union with the Pope and at the same time you teach that the current Pope is the worst thing to ever happen to the Church, that no one should listen to him. Anyone outside the Church is going to call you a lunatic and they are not going to believe you, nor are they going to submit to the Pope. It also happens especially among traditional sects, those who criticize the Pope use the most nasty satire, insults and uncharitable assertions that I have ever read about anyone; it is shameful that these people claim to be Catholic yet act in such manners.

Wait now. You go from "criticizing the Pope" to "criticizing him constantly" and "the worst thing to ever happen to the Church" and "no one should listen to him." Criticizing the Pope with respect and charity, while giving him the benefit of the doubt, etc., doesn't mean "constantly criticizing someone you consider the worst thing ever to happen to the Church and advising people to ignore what he says." St. Catherine of SIena went about it in the right way -- and vehemently. And folks outside of the Church can learn to think critically about the Pope, same as someone inside the Church. I don't think most people have any problem imagining an authority figure who needs to be obeyed in certain circumstances being criticized by his wards. If you're a soldier, for ex., you have to obey lawful orders, but you don't have to like your superiors, never criticize them, or obey them when you're all hanging out in a bar. It's a simple concept to understand.

That said, I agree with you that the way some (non-sede) Catholics talk about the Pope is absolutely disgusting.

Quote: Sedevacantist should be condemned for their errors. Vatican 1 stated that there will always be perpetual successors to the Chair of Peter; the Chair cannot be empty (except until the next election after a Pope dies, etc), it is an error to believe that Pope Francis or past Popes within 50-60 year time period were not Popes at all.

While I am definitely not a sede, I have to correct you here. Vatican I said that the office of the papacy is permanent, not that there will always, at all times, be a Pope. There've been a number of times throughout the History of the Church where there hasn't been a Pope for a chunk of time.

But all of that sort of thing needs to be discussed in the proper sub-forum, not in this one.
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#23
(03-20-2015, 04:08 PM)Azygos Wrote:
(03-20-2015, 03:50 PM)GangGreen Wrote: The issues with CMTV in these parts came from his attacks on other traditional outlets like the Remnant. Add in the fact that he refuses to say anything negative about the Pope and you have people who are weary of him. I personally think that CMTV does a great job and is one of the few traditional outlets that can and is willing to actually go out on the streets and cause a ruckus in the modern church.

I think that he is right in refusing to publicly criticize the Pope, in most circumstances. Do tell how you are to teach people that we are to submit to the Pope (the Vicar of Christ) and that he has universal jurisdiction over the Church, while you are constantly criticizing him publicly? You men are trying to teach others that God commands everyone to be in union with the Pope and at the same time you teach that the current Pope is the worst thing to ever happen to the Church, that no one should listen to him. Anyone outside the Church is going to call you a lunatic and they are not going to believe you, nor are they going to submit to the Pope. It also happens especially among traditional sects, those who criticize the Pope use the most nasty satire, insults and uncharitable assertions that I have ever read about anyone; it is shameful that these people claim to be Catholic yet act in such manners.

Sedevacantist should be condemned for their errors. Vatican 1 stated that there will always be perpetual successors to the Chair of Peter; the Chair cannot be empty (except until the next election after a Pope dies, etc), it is an error to believe that Pope Francis or past Popes within 50-60 year time period were not Popes at all.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the Remnant promote the heresy of Sedevacantism?

The reason the Pope has to be "constantly critizised" is because he constantly says things that are damaging  to the Faith. This is not people trying to knit-pick any little thing in order to disparage the Pope. We are currently in a free- all and if you are unable to see how this is the case you are completely blind.

I am not going to provide a litany of links here of things the Pope says and does ON A DAILY BASIS which warrant resistance and criticism, because it would be too long. Speech after speech, sermon after sermon The list is endless..

The real scandal here ,is in fact those who refuse to criticize the Pope due to some misguided sense of obedience. When the Pope is personally hell bend on changing or bypassing Doctrinal matters established by Christ himself and calling it "mercy" .

In fact it would be easier to keep our mouth shut about Alexander VI Borgia's depravities than about Francis since Alexander managed to pass down the Faith in one piece and Francis insists on destroying everything his hands touch.
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#24
(03-21-2015, 10:41 AM)spikepaga Wrote:
(03-20-2015, 04:08 PM)Azygos Wrote:
(03-20-2015, 03:50 PM)GangGreen Wrote: The issues with CMTV in these parts came from his attacks on other traditional outlets like the Remnant. Add in the fact that he refuses to say anything negative about the Pope and you have people who are weary of him. I personally think that CMTV does a great job and is one of the few traditional outlets that can and is willing to actually go out on the streets and cause a ruckus in the modern church.

I think that he is right in refusing to publicly criticize the Pope, in most circumstances. Do tell how you are to teach people that we are to submit to the Pope (the Vicar of Christ) and that he has universal jurisdiction over the Church, while you are constantly criticizing him publicly? You men are trying to teach others that God commands everyone to be in union with the Pope and at the same time you teach that the current Pope is the worst thing to ever happen to the Church, that no one should listen to him. Anyone outside the Church is going to call you a lunatic and they are not going to believe you, nor are they going to submit to the Pope. It also happens especially among traditional sects, those who criticize the Pope use the most nasty satire, insults and uncharitable assertions that I have ever read about anyone; it is shameful that these people claim to be Catholic yet act in such manners.

Sedevacantist should be condemned for their errors. Vatican 1 stated that there will always be perpetual successors to the Chair of Peter; the Chair cannot be empty (except until the next election after a Pope dies, etc), it is an error to believe that Pope Francis or past Popes within 50-60 year time period were not Popes at all.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the Remnant promote the heresy of Sedevacantism?

The reason the Pope has to be "constantly critizised" is because he constantly says things that are damaging  to the Faith. This is not people trying to knit-pick any little thing in order to disparage the Pope. We are currently in a free- all and if you are unable to see how this is the case you are completely blind.

I am not going to provide a litany of links here of things the Pope says and does ON A DAILY BASIS which warrant resistance and criticism, because it would be too long. Speech after speech, sermon after sermon The list is endless..

The real scandal here ,is in fact those who refuse to criticize the Pope due to some misguided sense of obedience. When the Pope is personally hell bend on changing or bypassing Doctrinal matters established by Christ himself and calling it "mercy" .

In fact it would be easier to keep our mouth shut about Alexander VI Borgia's depravities than about Francis since Alexander managed to pass down the Faith in one piece and Francis insists on destroying everything his hands touch.

The problem I have with this approach is that many Catholics and/or non-Catholics don't even know what is going on in the Vatican or what Pope Francis is saying day in and day out (hell, I don't even know most of the time), at-least not the everyday people that I speak to. Now if they see Catholics revealing all of Pope Francis faults and criticizing him at every turn, just like it is a free for all, then I think it creates a bad image of the Papacy in the minds of believers and unbelievers, including the Church in general (is the Church really a free for all?). I think Catholics need to start weighing their priorities and asking themselves just what they are trying to accomplish when they speak or criticize the Pope. Your not going to convince people that the Pope is infallible in official decrees (ex-cathedra) and that he is the Vicar of Christ with universal jurisdiction over the entire Christian Church when you are constantly upbraiding him in front of everyone. Now if you (Catholics) do not respect the Holy Father and at-least treat him like a real Father then no one else will and consequently they will not obey the Church unto salvation. Perhaps it is better to be silent and to discuss things more on an individual basis when people have concerns about what Pope Francis says or does.

I will give a personal example of a time that I should have been silent but opened my big mouth. Once I criticized JP2 for kissing the Qur'an in front of a Catholic who has been Catholic for about 50 years and they did not even know it; I think revealing this fault of JP2's scandalized this person and they would have been better for not knowing it. So I had to take a step back and ask, to what end do I do this?

Now if scandals must arise then so be but at the same time so many scandals arise because people will not stop acting like it is a free for all. I don't think every comment from Francis needs to be criticized. These things will pass away and no one will remember them anyhow, however when Catholics make a big deal about every little thing that he says or does then they are keeping those things alive for everyone to remember. In fact, I heard about JP2 kissing the Qur'an from Sedevacantist first, to me it makes perfect sense why they promote things like this because they are always looking for every single fault or sin that the any Pope has done because they are trying to attack the papacy. They want people to leave the Church for their blend of heresy, protestants do the exact same thing. So criticizing the Pope at every turn? To what end?
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#25
Quote:The problem I have with this approach is that many Catholics and/or non-Catholics don't even know what is going on in the Vatican or what Pope Francis is saying day in and day out (hell, I don't even know most of the time), at-least not the everyday people that I speak to. Now if they see Catholics revealing all of Pope Francis faults and criticizing him at every turn, just like it is a free for all, then I think it creates a bad image of the Papacy in the minds of believers and unbelievers, including the Church in general (is the Church really a free for all?). I think Catholics need to start weighing their priorities and asking themselves just what they are trying to accomplish when they speak or criticize the Pope. Your not going to convince people that the Pope is infallible in official decrees (ex-cathedra) and that he is the Vicar of Christ with universal jurisdiction over the entire Christian Church when you are constantly upbraiding him in front of everyone. Now if you (Catholics) do not respect the Holy Father and at-least treat him like a real Father then no one else will and consequently they will not obey the Church unto salvation. Perhaps it is better to be silent and to discuss things more on an individual basis when people have concerns about what Pope Francis says or does.

I will give a personal example of a time that I should have been silent but opened my big mouth. Once I criticized JP2 for kissing the Qur'an in front of a Catholic who has been Catholic for about 50 years and they did not even know it; I think revealing this fault of JP2's scandalized this person and they would have been better for not knowing it. So I had to take a step back and ask, to what end do I do this?

Now if scandals must arise then so be but at the same time so many scandals arise because people will not stop acting like it is a free for all. I don't think every comment from Francis needs to be criticized. These things will pass away and no one will remember them anyhow, however when Catholics make a big deal about every little thing that he says or does then they are keeping those things alive for everyone to remember. In fact, I heard about JP2 kissing the Qur'an from Sedevacantist first, to me it makes perfect sense why they promote things like this because they are always looking for every single fault or sin that the any Pope has done because they are trying to attack the papacy. They want people to leave the Church for their blend of heresy, protestants do the exact same thing. So criticizing the Pope at every turn? To what end?

The pope does a good enough job himself in creating a bad image of the papacy, and I disagree that all of his comments and actions will pass away and not be remembered or imitated. Also, one can't be a pollyanna and ignore all of the scandalous things the pope says or does. People who a oblivious to the questionable things Pope Francis does are probably the same people who hear their news on the pope from the mainstream media. Would you rather have people believing the liberal media about what the pope has allegedly done or said that allegedly "changed" the Catholic Church. That's uncharitable if you ask me,

MDA
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#26
Azgos, this makes absolutely no sense.

So you think keeping people blissfully unaware of the magnitude of the crisis is a solution? To take your own example, the scandal is not finding out about an even that took place (JP kissing a Koran), the scandal is in the actual event itself.  Maybe if more people would have been aware of the actions and actual intentions of JP 2 we would have more with their eyes opened. But no, instead people tried to pretend that the kissing of the Koran, the defiling of the altars of Assisi and the multiple ecumenical aberrations did not exist, even though there are actual photographs (!!!!!!) to document the events.

Look at how far ignorance has gotten us. So many good Catholics just following the non-sense coming out of Rome just because they don't know any better.  How can people oppose something they don't even know about?  they just fall in love more and more with the "merciful" Francis to the point they will gobble up all the cyanide laced food he gives them.

Voris approach and your approach is in great part why things are the way they are.  Reporting only the nice Catholic things the Pope does and then trying to put a positive spin on every scandal he does.  Then, the dumbed down masses accept anything without question. ........... vernacular modern Mass, altar girls, Christ in the paw and communion for everyone, you say?......well it must be great because the merciful charismatic Pope xxx says so!!!!

Wake up. It ain't 1905 anymore. The destruction is coming right from the top.
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#27
I agree with previous posters that Cardinal Dolan's actions are deplorable in regards to this issue.  However, I also think that there is a culture of "openness" towards homosexuality within the Church that comes from the top.  If Pope Francis were more vocal in denouncing homosexuality or were just less confusing on the topic, I think cardinals and bishops like Dolan would think twice about doing something like this.

The bottom line is that this culture comes from the top.  If Pope Francis wanted to address it, he could have, but as far as I know, he has not, and by doing so, gave his implicit approbation.  This is what's truly unsettling.
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#28
(03-21-2015, 12:58 PM)missadeangelis Wrote:
Quote:The problem I have with this approach is that many Catholics and/or non-Catholics don't even know what is going on in the Vatican or what Pope Francis is saying day in and day out (hell, I don't even know most of the time), at-least not the everyday people that I speak to. Now if they see Catholics revealing all of Pope Francis faults and criticizing him at every turn, just like it is a free for all, then I think it creates a bad image of the Papacy in the minds of believers and unbelievers, including the Church in general (is the Church really a free for all?). I think Catholics need to start weighing their priorities and asking themselves just what they are trying to accomplish when they speak or criticize the Pope. Your not going to convince people that the Pope is infallible in official decrees (ex-cathedra) and that he is the Vicar of Christ with universal jurisdiction over the entire Christian Church when you are constantly upbraiding him in front of everyone. Now if you (Catholics) do not respect the Holy Father and at-least treat him like a real Father then no one else will and consequently they will not obey the Church unto salvation. Perhaps it is better to be silent and to discuss things more on an individual basis when people have concerns about what Pope Francis says or does.

I will give a personal example of a time that I should have been silent but opened my big mouth. Once I criticized JP2 for kissing the Qur'an in front of a Catholic who has been Catholic for about 50 years and they did not even know it; I think revealing this fault of JP2's scandalized this person and they would have been better for not knowing it. So I had to take a step back and ask, to what end do I do this?

Now if scandals must arise then so be but at the same time so many scandals arise because people will not stop acting like it is a free for all. I don't think every comment from Francis needs to be criticized. These things will pass away and no one will remember them anyhow, however when Catholics make a big deal about every little thing that he says or does then they are keeping those things alive for everyone to remember. In fact, I heard about JP2 kissing the Qur'an from Sedevacantist first, to me it makes perfect sense why they promote things like this because they are always looking for every single fault or sin that the any Pope has done because they are trying to attack the papacy. They want people to leave the Church for their blend of heresy, protestants do the exact same thing. So criticizing the Pope at every turn? To what end?

The pope does a good enough job himself in creating a bad image of the papacy, and I disagree that all of his comments and actions will pass away and not be remembered or imitated. Also, one can't be a pollyanna and ignore all of the scandalous things the pope says or does. People who a oblivious to the questionable things Pope Francis does are probably the same people who hear their news on the pope from the mainstream media. Would you rather have people believing the liberal media about what the pope has allegedly done or said that allegedly "changed" the Catholic Church. That's uncharitable if you ask me,

MDA

If they are listening to the liberal media then they have bigger problems in their lives than Pope Francis.
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#29
(03-21-2015, 01:25 PM)spikepaga Wrote: Azgos, this makes absolutely no sense.

So you think keeping people blissfully unaware of the magnitude of the crisis is a solution? To take your own example, the scandal is not finding out about an even that took place (JP kissing a Koran), the scandal is in the actual event itself.  Maybe if more people would have been aware of the actions and actual intentions of JP 2 we would have more with their eyes opened. But no, instead people tried to pretend that the kissing of the Koran, the defiling of the altars of Assisi and the multiple ecumenical aberrations did not exist, even though there are actual photographs (!!!!!!) to document the events.

Look at how far ignorance has gotten us. So many good Catholics just following the non-sense coming out of Rome just because they don't know any better.  How can people oppose something they don't even know about?  they just fall in love more and more with the "merciful" Francis to the point they will gobble up all the cyanide laced food he gives them.

Voris approach and your approach is in great part why things are the way they are.  Reporting only the nice Catholic things the Pope does and then trying to put a positive spin on every scandal he does.  Then, the dumbed down masses accept anything without question. ........... vernacular modern Mass, altar girls, Christ in the paw and communion for everyone, you say?......well it must be great because the merciful charismatic Pope xxx says so!!!!

Wake up. It ain't 1905 anymore. The destruction is coming right from the top.

I'm not saying that we should hide the crisis or put a positive spin on everything bad that happens in the Church, please don't put words in my mouth.

However, I personally believe that it is better to concentrate on Catechizing the faithful than it is to criticize the Popes on things that most people don't even know about and will never know about. Why risk scandalizing them and why give them cause to doubt the faith? I believe that teaching the faithful why it is wrong to honor false religions (kiss the Qur'an) or to have scandalous interfaith meetings (Assisi) is a better solution than revealing the faults of the Popes and then bashing them in front of everyone for these faults. For instance, I would rather have my children read the encyclical mortalium animos than a single critique of JP2 on Assisi. I would rather spend my time forming and molding the conscience of my kids to the truth than filling it with hatred for certain Popes or by filling it with the common critiques of the Popes by traditional Catholics.

And I know that everyone keeps saying that the destruction is coming from the top but when do the people at the bottom start taking responsibility for themselves and their own lives? I think the crisis in the Church is not happening merely because we got bad leaders but because we got unfaithful laity (who love contraception and the world, etc) and have had unfaithful laity for a long time.. I certainly wish that our leaders would step up and be better leaders but at the same time, look around at the laity. If the majority of the laity were as serious as you and me then the Church would look entirely different right now.

If an uneducated man like myself who was addicted to porno, video games, lust and all manners of vice can came out of the darkness by prayer (the Grace of God) than so can the lazy laity, if they choose to do so. Hell, I went 10 years without reading a single book until I came back to the faith and when I did come back (even in the midst of the crisis), I hardly knew how to write a paragraph. I am testimony that God's Grace is sufficient in this crisis for all the laity and no matter what is happening in the Church people can become Holy; this even includes the NO Mass which all the traditionalist hate, it is still the Body of Christ and a Catholic can still attend to the breaking of the bread and the prayers unto Holiness.

I believe that the crisis in the Church will not turn around until the laity as a whole get serious about their faith and that means that they start living the faith, obeying all the teachings of the Church. My speculation is that one of the reasons for the crisis in the Church is that God is spitting the lukewarm out of his mouth.

I think every Catholic here should listen to this sermon by an FSSP priest on the crisis in the Church. He provides a better perspective than I can on the issue.

http://www.romans10seventeen.org/audio-f...eption.mp3

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#30
And this is where we have a disconnect.

I am not putting words in your mouth. You are clearly saying you don't think revealing  the truth (which you call "bashing") is a possitive  thing. You think it's a scandal.  You are free to view things as you wish.

The problem is when people who think like this (Voris) try to silence or reprimand other people for bringing the truth to light.  If you want to choose the path of "pray , pray and obey" that's cool. No one is going to force you to do otherwise.....some of us prefer the path of resistance.

Evidently you do not see how it is dangerous for people to think that a bad Pope is a good Pope. People will blindly follow a good Pope and won't question him, which is exactly what Francis wants to happen when he tries to lay down his "mercy" upon the Church.



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