Francis' Latest: Denies Dogma on Hell
#41
(03-26-2015, 08:19 AM)FatherCekada Wrote: formerbuddhist: "Honestly I try to forget about Francis for the most part... Why should we pay attention to every papal utterance? Is not this not simply crass Papolatry? This almost cultlike obsession with the pope is repugnant to me."

Uxi: "A great FSSP priest once told his flock that we can't worry about what Popes... are saying or doing,."

GangGreen: "Before the time of mass media, none of this stuff would have ever been cared about. Unless something big came from the Pope, people probably hardly even heard from him."

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Comments like these could just as easily been lifted from opinion pieces or letters to the editor in the lib/modernist National Catholic Reporter.

Utter indifference, if not total contempt, for the teaching of the Successor of St. Peter and Vicar of Jesus Christ on Earth. Both "extremes" meet on this one!

Yes, you "recognize" Francis, but he's just an empty symbol for you,  little more than a white-cassocked mannequin on a balcony.

Is THAT the papacy that Our Lord established?

I'm with Fr. Cekada on this one. You can't just not care about what the Pope is doing or saying as though his actions really have no consequences. Burying one's head in the sand is not the right thing to do. Do I have all the answers? No. But I know indifference isn't the way to go.

MDA
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#42
(03-26-2015, 11:28 AM)spikepaga Wrote:
(03-26-2015, 08:19 AM)FatherCekada Wrote: formerbuddhist: "Honestly I try to forget about Francis for the most part... Why should we pay attention to every papal utterance? Is not this not simply crass Papolatry? This almost cultlike obsession with the pope is repugnant to me."

Uxi: "A great FSSP priest once told his flock that we can't worry about what Popes... are saying or doing,."

GangGreen: "Before the time of mass media, none of this stuff would have ever been cared about. Unless something big came from the Pope, people probably hardly even heard from him."

------

Comments like these could just as easily been lifted from opinion pieces or letters to the editor in the lib/modernist National Catholic Reporter.

Utter indifference, if not total contempt, for the teaching of the Successor of St. Peter and Vicar of Jesus Christ on Earth. Both "extremes" meet on this one!

Yes, you "recognize" Francis, but he's just an empty symbol for you,  little more than a white-cassocked mannequin on a balcony.

Is THAT the papacy that Our Lord established?

Even more reason to be scandalized. The Pope knows that his every utterance is in fact reported constantly, and you'd figure that he would have had time to reflect and rein back the crazy interviews and comments, but he just keeps at it. Even if half of this new interview is made up its still scandalous that the Pope refuses to keep quiet, because we can ignore him all we want, but the rest of the world still looks at him and takes his comments very seriously

Your response does not excuse your crack about "papolatry" -- a word that belongs on the lips of Scottish Presbyterians but not Catholics.

You want to be able to say that you (a) "recognize the pope" but (b) are free to ignore some of his teachings, and even dismiss adherence to all of them as "idolatrous."

But a Catholic can't have (b) if he claims to have (a).

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#43
(03-26-2015, 05:23 PM)FatherCekada Wrote:
(03-26-2015, 11:29 AM)Uxi Wrote:
(03-26-2015, 08:19 AM)FatherCekada Wrote: Comments like these could just as easily been lifted from opinion pieces or letters to the editor in the lib/modernist National Catholic Reporter.

Utter indifference, if not total contempt, for the teaching of the Successor of St. Peter and Vicar of Jesus Christ on Earth. Both "extremes" meet on this one!

Yes, you "recognize" Francis, but he's just an empty symbol for you,  little more than a white-cassocked mannequin on a balcony.

Only when you remove all context could you interpret my post as indifference, much less anything in the NCR.  To be charitable to such an interpretation, I didn't elucidate on the reasoning: we can't  influence the Holy Father (or the other prelates of the hierarchy you excluded in the quote), nor should we dare to wish to! though we can and should pray for them.  Do you pray for the Holy Father, Fr. Cekada? 

Quote:Is THAT the papacy that Our Lord established?

No, dear reverend Father, He established a real authority present on the Earth that will endure forever, which you deny is still extant, do you not?  Quite unlike those you are claiming are 'indifferent'...

Go back to your initial statement: "A great FSSP priest once told his flock that we can't worry about what Popes... are saying."

A Catholic is supposed to "worry about" what a real pope is saying -- heed and receive his teaching. That's why Christ established the papal office and gave popes the authority -- HIS authority -- to teach.

Yet he's not obligated to teach at every single waking moment in every utterance he makes for the rest of his life.  Certainly, great popes have inspired with the holiness of their every day lives but every single opinion casually spoken without due deliberation (or formality)?

Besides, you still aren't even given my original statement its full context.  "...much less be getting worked up over it and inciting schism."  If he were any other person than the Holy Father, would his words even reach anyone?  It certainly merits recognition, but not worry. Worry carries a whole separate set of implication that one has some ability to do anything about it.  Even for those clerics in communion with him, the ability in that regard would be all but an iota more than a layman. Those outside should logically be less so.  In the centuries and millennia when the only communication any cleric or laic ever heard was the effective equivalent of a formal bull, they would find this conversation rather curious, no? 

The rest of the context was to look after their own souls and those they're responsible for first and foremost.  The words of good shepherds or bad doesn't exonerate our responsibility in that regard, which was my point, much less excuse gnashing of teeth or hand wringing at every statement the Holy Father says (accurate or not) without clearly invoking his authority, which is anything but stipulated in this or any of the other infamous statements he makes.
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#44
The problem is we can throw our spiritual life away focusing too much about what the Pope and the bishops are doing. Perhaps we should worry somewhat, but it seems to me that many people obsess over this stuff, probably to the detriment of their prayers.  Personsally I think living a good Christian life for yourself and others all the while trusting in God is better for the lot of us than spending our energy trying to make sense of what the Popes and the bishops do or say. Each of us is accountable to God for our own actions, not anyone else's.
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#45
The Pope is supposed to teach what the Church teaches, so if I learn what the Church teaches then I have no need to try to discern what he said or didn't say on global media, which could be true or not true.

I think many people would be much better off reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church (including the Baltimore Catechism #4, Catechism of the Council of Trent, etc), the Bible (preferably with Haydock Commentary), Books by Saints and good Catholic authors than they would be by reading news articles and the like. If people are trying to learn Catholicism from the news then they are foolish.

Cekada, you seem to insinuate that we should be learning Catholicism from the news and that we should accept the news as fact. I believe there is something wrong with your thinking.  ???
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#46
A quote from http://callmejorgebergoglio.blogspot.com/ (I think it's a sedeplenist blog but one very critical of the Pope)
Quote:Later, in the church, he met with a group of children and young people, and answered their questions. The first was: if God forgives everything, why does Hell exist? The Pope replied that Hell is the desire to distance oneself from God and to reject God's love. But”, he added, “if you were a terrible sinner, who had committed all the sins in the world, all of them, condemned to death, and even when you are there, you were to blaspheme, insults... and at the moment of death, when you were about to die, you were to look to Heaven and say, 'Lord …!', where do you go, to Heaven or to Hell? To Heaven! Only those who say, I have no need of You, I can get along by myself, as the devil did, are in Hell – and he is the only one we are certain is there”.
Apart from the fact that there was no mention of perfect contrition (although I don't know whether it was the time and place for that), it doesn't sound like denying post-mortem existence.
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#47
I am not saying whether or not Pope Francis said what people are saying he said but I believe I would be hesitant to believe what Eugenio Scalfari, the famed atheist has to say. I mean, what could be his agenda? Not good, I am sure.

Even Father X says Scalfari has not always been exact in his reportings on Pope Francis interviews
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#48
(03-26-2015, 05:34 PM)missadeangelis Wrote:
(03-26-2015, 08:19 AM)FatherCekada Wrote: formerbuddhist: "Honestly I try to forget about Francis for the most part... Why should we pay attention to every papal utterance? Is not this not simply crass Papolatry? This almost cultlike obsession with the pope is repugnant to me."

Uxi: "A great FSSP priest once told his flock that we can't worry about what Popes... are saying or doing,."

GangGreen: "Before the time of mass media, none of this stuff would have ever been cared about. Unless something big came from the Pope, people probably hardly even heard from him."

------

Comments like these could just as easily been lifted from opinion pieces or letters to the editor in the lib/modernist National Catholic Reporter.

Utter indifference, if not total contempt, for the teaching of the Successor of St. Peter and Vicar of Jesus Christ on Earth. Both "extremes" meet on this one!

Yes, you "recognize" Francis, but he's just an empty symbol for you,  little more than a white-cassocked mannequin on a balcony.

Is THAT the papacy that Our Lord established?

I'm with Fr. Cekada on this one. You can't just not care about what the Pope is doing or saying as though his actions really have no consequences. Burying one's head in the sand is not the right thing to do. Do I have all the answers? No. But I know indifference isn't the way to go.

MDA

And the problem with burying our heads in the sand has let us to the current point we are at now. A Pope hell-bend on imposing in one way or another this  "mercy"  of allowing adulterers up to the communion rail, or more accurately up to the extraordinary ministers' hand.

But the whole argument is pointless because those people with their heads in the sand will bury it even deeper if Francis manages to trump the words of Christ and 2000 years of Church teaching at the Synod and will rationalize it. It's been the same way for years.  That is the M.O. ....they follow Catholic doctrine until the Pope tells them they have to go against it and then they rationalize that  "that was just a discipline" or "this was a bad interpretation"
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#49
(03-28-2015, 05:51 PM)MagdalenaRita Wrote: I am not saying whether or not Pope Francis said what people are saying he said but I believe I would be hesitant to believe what Eugenio Scalfari, the famed atheist has to say. I mean, what could be his agenda? Not good, I am sure.

Even Father X says Scalfari has not always been exact in his reportings on Pope Francis interviews

Who cares if Scalfari made up half the interview!!

The fact that Francis continues to speak to the world thru this man knowing that he is  unreliable and supposedly takes embellishes the interviews makes Francis responsible for everything That was reported.
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#50
I understand that lay people shouldn't become obsessive over theses kind of things and should rather concentrate on their own spiritual growth but I believe there should be a balance. Conservative and Traditional Catholics put a heavy emphasis on the Papacy and the how vital it is being in union with the Pope. The Holy Father has the ultimate teaching authority in the Church, that we can all agree on. Yes you should pray and read holy books and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, but if their is heresy being taught by the highest authorities in the Church it should definitely be exposed and fought against. I don't see any reason you can't do both.

Its a little disingenuous to place such a high importance on the papacy and being in communion with the present Pope and to consider him to be your supreme teacher and then turn around and advise people to pretend like he doesn't exist and just read the lives of saints and pray the Rosary. I know it may a coping mechanism but its ultimately not helping the Church
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