Good and Evil; Commoner's Views.
#71
(05-12-2015, 01:14 PM)J Michael Wrote: Yes, to the extent that I agree with you, which is pretty much on all points you mention above, there certainly is good in it.  How do I know that?  A) I don't; B) Because I agree with you.  :LOL:
You cunning fellow.

You see, I'm trying to get you to disagree to the extent that you don't agree with me.
Quote:Ah, but we are, at least in God's eyes.  Or so I've read...
That's a curly one, isn't it? Why would I be important? He doesn't need the likes of me for anything... particularly the miserable, unvirtuous, unwise, grubby, abrasive wretch that I am.

The saga of St Benedict Joseph Labre is an interesting one. He was a chap who gave up a privileged life to be a filthy, flea-ridden beggar who wouldn't even beg. When he was Canonised the important people in the Church were utterly dismayed. They complained that "the Church is destroying its credibility".

If that were true then God's credibility must be taking a hellava knock for sustaining the likes of me. Where's the good in that?
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#72
(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote: The saga of St Benedict Joseph Labre is an interesting one. He was a chap who gave up a privileged life to be a filthy, flea-ridden beggar who wouldn't even beg. When he was Canonised the important people in the Church were utterly dismayed. They complained that "the Church is destroying its credibility".

If that were true then God's credibility must be taking a hellava knock for sustaining the likes of me. Where's the good in that?

I'd have thought having everywhere images of God Himself dying the most wretched, humiliating death possible at that time and place would put an end to that sort of argument.
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#73
(05-13-2015, 09:56 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote: The saga of St Benedict Joseph Labre is an interesting one. He was a chap who gave up a privileged life to be a filthy, flea-ridden beggar who wouldn't even beg. When he was Canonised the important people in the Church were utterly dismayed. They complained that "the Church is destroying its credibility".

If that were true then God's credibility must be taking a hellava knock for sustaining the likes of me. Where's the good in that?

I'd have thought having everywhere images of God Himself dying the most wretched, humiliating death possible at that time and place would put an end to that sort of argument.

What's left of my brain hasn't fully woken up yet (does it ever??).  So, I'm not sure what you mean by that.  If you could elaborate for me, I'd appreciate it! :)
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#74
(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote:
(05-12-2015, 01:14 PM)J Michael Wrote: Yes, to the extent that I agree with you, which is pretty much on all points you mention above, there certainly is good in it.  How do I know that?  A) I don't; B) Because I agree with you.  :LOL:
You cunning fellow.

You see, I'm trying to get you to disagree to the extent that you don't agree with me.
??? ???

(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote:
Quote:Ah, but we are, at least in God's eyes.  Or so I've read...
That's a curly one, isn't it? Why would I be important? He doesn't need the likes of me for anything... particularly the miserable, unvirtuous, unwise, grubby, abrasive wretch that I am.

Isn't that somewhere in that old book, uh...the Bible?  Something about knowing the number of hairs on your head or something like that...?

Of course God doesn't need the likes of any of us.  He's God, after all.  Or so I've heard...

(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote: The saga of St Benedict Joseph Labre is an interesting one. He was a chap who gave up a privileged life to be a filthy, flea-ridden beggar who wouldn't even beg. When he was Canonised the important people in the Church were utterly dismayed. They complained that "the Church is destroying its credibility".

If that were true then God's credibility must be taking a hellava knock for sustaining the likes of me. Where's the good in that?

Interesting.  I'm not familiar with that particular saga.  But your last sentence gives it away..."[i]If that were true then God's credibility must be..."[/i], the "that" referring to the Church destroying its credibility.  So, if it wasn't true, if the Church was NOT destroying its credibility, then maybe God really isn't taking a helluva knock for sustaining the likes of you and me.  Is there good in that?  Do we (can we) know which of the "if's" is true??  If so, how?
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#75
(05-13-2015, 10:16 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 09:56 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote: The saga of St Benedict Joseph Labre is an interesting one. He was a chap who gave up a privileged life to be a filthy, flea-ridden beggar who wouldn't even beg. When he was Canonised the important people in the Church were utterly dismayed. They complained that "the Church is destroying its credibility".

If that were true then God's credibility must be taking a hellava knock for sustaining the likes of me. Where's the good in that?

I'd have thought having everywhere images of God Himself dying the most wretched, humiliating death possible at that time and place would put an end to that sort of argument.

What's left of my brain hasn't fully woken up yet (does it ever??).  So, I'm not sure what you mean by that.  If you could elaborate for me, I'd appreciate it! :)

Crucifixes!
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#76
(05-13-2015, 10:46 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 10:16 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 09:56 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote: The saga of St Benedict Joseph Labre is an interesting one. He was a chap who gave up a privileged life to be a filthy, flea-ridden beggar who wouldn't even beg. When he was Canonised the important people in the Church were utterly dismayed. They complained that "the Church is destroying its credibility".

If that were true then God's credibility must be taking a hellava knock for sustaining the likes of me. Where's the good in that?

I'd have thought having everywhere images of God Himself dying the most wretched, humiliating death possible at that time and place would put an end to that sort of argument.

What's left of my brain hasn't fully woken up yet (does it ever??).  So, I'm not sure what you mean by that.  If you could elaborate for me, I'd appreciate it! :)

Crucifixes!

Oh... :grin:  But, why would the presence of crucifixes, per se, "...put an end to that sort of argument."  Or maybe my question should be, what is the sort of argument you're referring to?  Sorry, I'm not being intentionally obtuse, I think it's just my natural state. :)
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#77
(05-13-2015, 11:20 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 10:46 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 10:16 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 09:56 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote: The saga of St Benedict Joseph Labre is an interesting one. He was a chap who gave up a privileged life to be a filthy, flea-ridden beggar who wouldn't even beg. When he was Canonised the important people in the Church were utterly dismayed. They complained that "the Church is destroying its credibility".

If that were true then God's credibility must be taking a hellava knock for sustaining the likes of me. Where's the good in that?

I'd have thought having everywhere images of God Himself dying the most wretched, humiliating death possible at that time and place would put an end to that sort of argument.

What's left of my brain hasn't fully woken up yet (does it ever??).  So, I'm not sure what you mean by that.  If you could elaborate for me, I'd appreciate it! :)

Crucifixes!

Oh... :grin:  But, why would the presence of crucifixes, per se, "...put an end to that sort of argument."  Or maybe my question should be, what is the sort of argument you're referring to?  Sorry, I'm not being intentionally obtuse, I think it's just my natural state. :)

Because it ought to remind people that we worship a God who placed himself in the lowest, most humiliating relation to other men, which ought to put to rest any notion that we shouldn't honour as a saint someone in the same low relation to others.
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#78
(05-13-2015, 12:32 PM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 11:20 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 10:46 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 10:16 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 09:56 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote: The saga of St Benedict Joseph Labre is an interesting one. He was a chap who gave up a privileged life to be a filthy, flea-ridden beggar who wouldn't even beg. When he was Canonised the important people in the Church were utterly dismayed. They complained that "the Church is destroying its credibility".

If that were true then God's credibility must be taking a hellava knock for sustaining the likes of me. Where's the good in that?

I'd have thought having everywhere images of God Himself dying the most wretched, humiliating death possible at that time and place would put an end to that sort of argument.

What's left of my brain hasn't fully woken up yet (does it ever??).  So, I'm not sure what you mean by that.  If you could elaborate for me, I'd appreciate it! :)

Crucifixes!

Oh... :grin:  But, why would the presence of crucifixes, per se, "...put an end to that sort of argument."  Or maybe my question should be, what is the sort of argument you're referring to?  Sorry, I'm not being intentionally obtuse, I think it's just my natural state. :)

Because it ought to remind people that we worship a God who placed himself in the lowest, most humiliating relation to other men, which ought to put to rest any notion that we shouldn't honour as a saint someone in the same low relation to others.

The highlighted bit is key, here.  What you say is true, but it also tends to be true that when you keep seeing something over and over and over and over again, you kind of "stop" seeing it, if you know what I mean.  Over-exposure and all that...Then there's that saying of St. Paul (which applies so aptly to mean far too often), ""I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do." Or something like that...
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#79
(05-13-2015, 12:32 PM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 11:20 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 10:46 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 10:16 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 09:56 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote: The saga of St Benedict Joseph Labre is an interesting one. He was a chap who gave up a privileged life to be a filthy, flea-ridden beggar who wouldn't even beg. When he was Canonised the important people in the Church were utterly dismayed. They complained that "the Church is destroying its credibility".

If that were true then God's credibility must be taking a hellava knock for sustaining the likes of me. Where's the good in that?

I'd have thought having everywhere images of God Himself dying the most wretched, humiliating death possible at that time and place would put an end to that sort of argument.

What's left of my brain hasn't fully woken up yet (does it ever??).  So, I'm not sure what you mean by that.  If you could elaborate for me, I'd appreciate it! :)

Crucifixes!

Oh... :grin:  But, why would the presence of crucifixes, per se, "...put an end to that sort of argument."  Or maybe my question should be, what is the sort of argument you're referring to?  Sorry, I'm not being intentionally obtuse, I think it's just my natural state. :)

Because it ought to remind people that we worship a God who placed himself in the lowest, most humiliating relation to other men, which ought to put to rest any notion that we shouldn't honour as a saint someone in the same low relation to others.
Things are looking good for a bit of an argument about curly questions.

Quote: God who placed himself in the lowest, most humiliating relation to other men,
Why would He do that? It seems even more insane than the fellow who forsook the life of a gentleman for the life of an urchin.

This whole Creation thing seems to have gone way wrong. You have the likes of Mr Michael and me who don't even claim to be any kind of representation of God's infinite perfection. That's not to even mention the myriad others who do claim to be wiser and holier than God.
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#80
(05-14-2015, 06:55 AM)Oldavid Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 12:32 PM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 11:20 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 10:46 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 10:16 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 09:56 AM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-12-2015, 10:16 PM)Oldavid Wrote: The saga of St Benedict Joseph Labre is an interesting one. He was a chap who gave up a privileged life to be a filthy, flea-ridden beggar who wouldn't even beg. When he was Canonised the important people in the Church were utterly dismayed. They complained that "the Church is destroying its credibility".

If that were true then God's credibility must be taking a hellava knock for sustaining the likes of me. Where's the good in that?

I'd have thought having everywhere images of God Himself dying the most wretched, humiliating death possible at that time and place would put an end to that sort of argument.

What's left of my brain hasn't fully woken up yet (does it ever??).  So, I'm not sure what you mean by that.  If you could elaborate for me, I'd appreciate it! :)

Crucifixes!

Oh... :grin:  But, why would the presence of crucifixes, per se, "...put an end to that sort of argument."  Or maybe my question should be, what is the sort of argument you're referring to?  Sorry, I'm not being intentionally obtuse, I think it's just my natural state. :)

Because it ought to remind people that we worship a God who placed himself in the lowest, most humiliating relation to other men, which ought to put to rest any notion that we shouldn't honour as a saint someone in the same low relation to others.
Things are looking good for a bit of an argument about curly questions.

Quote: God who placed himself in the lowest, most humiliating relation to other men,
Why would He do that? It seems even more insane than the fellow who forsook the life of a gentleman for the life of an urchin.

This whole Creation thing seems to have gone way wrong. You have the likes of Mr Michael and me who don't even claim to be any kind of representation of God's infinite perfection. That's not to even mention the myriad others who do claim to be wiser and holier than God.

Ha!  Not only do I not "...even claim to be any kind of representation of God's infinite perfection", but I am also (at least sometimes) one of those "...myriad others who do claim to be wiser and holier than God."  Perhaps the latter proves the former. ???  There are times when I clearly (think I) know better than God and call Him on His errors and bad judgements and argue with Him that He really must try to see and do things MY way, which is clearly "better" than His!  Now, when you stop laughing.... :grin: :grin: :grin:

And yes, it DOES seem insane that God "...placed himself in the lowest, most humiliating relation to other men."  When I figure that one out, I'll be sure to let you all know! :)

So, which curly question are we going to argue about?  You start, Mr. Old.
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