Good and Evil; Commoner's Views.
#81
(05-14-2015, 12:31 PM)J Michael Wrote: Ha!  Not only do I not "...even claim to be any kind of representation of God's infinite perfection", but I am also (at least sometimes) one of those "...myriad others who do claim to be wiser and holier than God."  Perhaps the latter proves the former. ???  There are times when I clearly (think I) know better than God and call Him on His errors and bad judgements and argue with Him that He really must try to see and do things MY way, which is clearly "better" than His!  Now, when you stop laughing.... :grin: :grin: :grin:

And yes, it DOES seem insane that God "...placed himself in the lowest, most humiliating relation to other men."  When I figure that one out, I'll be sure to let you all know! :)
I can identify with most of that. For an omniscient and infinite intelligence it is remarkably difficult to get Him to understand even the simplest of instructions. (I hope He has a sense of humour... He could hurt me a lot if He decided to whack me for being cheeky).
Quote:So, which curly question are we going to argue about?
Why not start with His apparent insanity. My guess is that that is what Lucifer relegated himself to the Pit for. i.e. when Lucifer saw the Creation thing he said "That's stupid! No Creator would sacrifice Himself for His creatures".

What do you think about that, Mr Mick?, or anyone else for that matter.
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#82
(05-15-2015, 12:28 PM)Oldavid Wrote:
Quote:So, which curly question are we going to argue about?
Why not start with His apparent insanity. My guess is that that is what Lucifer relegated himself to the Pit for. i.e. when Lucifer saw the Creation thing he said "That's stupid! No Creator would sacrifice Himself for His creatures".

What do you think about that, Mr Mick?, or anyone else for that matter.

I don't know about the Latin rite, but Byzantine Good Friday goes on and on about how amazed and baffled all the angels were by the sight of God dying. One can easily imagine the fallen ones reacting in the same way, but with derision rather than humble deference to so strange a plan.
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#83
(05-15-2015, 12:28 PM)Oldavid Wrote:
(05-14-2015, 12:31 PM)J Michael Wrote: Ha!  Not only do I not "...even claim to be any kind of representation of God's infinite perfection", but I am also (at least sometimes) one of those "...myriad others who do claim to be wiser and holier than God."  Perhaps the latter proves the former. ???  There are times when I clearly (think I) know better than God and call Him on His errors and bad judgements and argue with Him that He really must try to see and do things MY way, which is clearly "better" than His!  Now, when you stop laughing.... :grin: :grin: :grin:

And yes, it DOES seem insane that God "...placed himself in the lowest, most humiliating relation to other men."  When I figure that one out, I'll be sure to let you all know! :)
I can identify with most of that. For an omniscient and infinite intelligence it is remarkably difficult to get Him to understand even the simplest of instructions. (I hope He has a sense of humour... He could hurt me a lot if He decided to whack me for being cheeky).
Quote:So, which curly question are we going to argue about?
Why not start with His apparent insanity. My guess is that that is what Lucifer relegated himself to the Pit for. i.e. when Lucifer saw the Creation thing he said "That's stupid! No Creator would sacrifice Himself for His creatures".

What do you think about that, Mr Mick?, or anyone else for that matter.

Oh boy.... :Hmm:  I'm not exactly sure what I think about that.  I can't speak for Lucifer, in spite of my claims to occasional superiority over God, so don't know if that's the essence of his rebellion and pride.  Would a Creator sacrifice Himself for His creatures?  Sheesh!  As I sit here and spontaneously combust, er...I mean..."think" about it, this is one of the things that crosses my mind:  God created all of us and the heavens and the earth, etc., etc.  This is where it gets tricky...presumably God still IS.  So...what did He sacrifice?  His Son, Jesus, who is also Him God (you know, this whole Trinity thingee really just boggles my remaining brain cell--I can't seem to get a grasp of it!!  No wonder the Jews reject it!  Ooops!!  Am I entering "heresy" now?? :O :O) but was incarnate (made flesh) for a period of approx. 33 years?  (See how confusing this can be??)  Jesus was "sacrificed" on the cross.  So, Jesus, the man, died.  But then he was resurrected, as we are told and asked to believe.  So, where, exactly is the "sacrifice"?  In the death of a man?  Who then while dead became not dead but not flesh (at least after the Ascension)?  In the death of God?  But if God still IS, (and why wouldn't He "be"?), how could He have died?  See how clear it is? :eyeroll: :Hmm: :LOL: :LOL:
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#84
(05-15-2015, 12:53 PM)J Michael Wrote: Oh boy.... :Hmm:  I'm not exactly sure what I think about that.  I can't speak for Lucifer, in spite of my claims to occasional superiority over God, so don't know if that's the essence of his rebellion and pride.  Would a Creator sacrifice Himself for His creatures?  Sheesh!  As I sit here and spontaneously combust, er...I mean..."think" about it, this is one of the things that crosses my mind:  God created all of us and the heavens and the earth, etc., etc.  This is where it gets tricky...presumably God still IS.  So...what did He sacrifice?  His Son, Jesus, who is also Him God (you know, this whole Trinity thingee really just boggles my remaining brain cell--I can't seem to get a grasp of it!!  No wonder the Jews reject it!  Ooops!!  Am I entering "heresy" now?? :O :O) but was incarnate (made flesh) for a period of approx. 33 years?  (See how confusing this can be??)  Jesus was "sacrificed" on the cross.  So, Jesus, the man, died.  But then he was resurrected, as we are told and asked to believe.  So, where, exactly is the "sacrifice"?  In the death of a man?  Who then while dead became not dead but not flesh (at least after the Ascension)?  In the death of God?  But if God still IS, (and why wouldn't He "be"?), how could He have died?  See how clear it is? :eyeroll: :Hmm: :LOL: :LOL:
See? I knew you'd be good for an argument if I primed and goaded you enough.

The Trinity is more comprehensible to me than the Incarnation. Anyhow, it's way past my bedtime. I'll be back to provoke you later.
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#85
(05-15-2015, 01:52 PM)Oldavid Wrote:
(05-15-2015, 12:53 PM)J Michael Wrote: Oh boy.... :Hmm:  I'm not exactly sure what I think about that.  I can't speak for Lucifer, in spite of my claims to occasional superiority over God, so don't know if that's the essence of his rebellion and pride.  Would a Creator sacrifice Himself for His creatures?  Sheesh!  As I sit here and spontaneously combust, er...I mean..."think" about it, this is one of the things that crosses my mind:  God created all of us and the heavens and the earth, etc., etc.  This is where it gets tricky...presumably God still IS.  So...what did He sacrifice?  His Son, Jesus, who is also Him God (you know, this whole Trinity thingee really just boggles my remaining brain cell--I can't seem to get a grasp of it!!  No wonder the Jews reject it!  Ooops!!  Am I entering "heresy" now?? :O :O) but was incarnate (made flesh) for a period of approx. 33 years?  (See how confusing this can be??)  Jesus was "sacrificed" on the cross.  So, Jesus, the man, died.  But then he was resurrected, as we are told and asked to believe.  So, where, exactly is the "sacrifice"?  In the death of a man?  Who then while dead became not dead but not flesh (at least after the Ascension)?  In the death of God?  But if God still IS, (and why wouldn't He "be"?), how could He have died?  See how clear it is? :eyeroll: :Hmm: :LOL: :LOL:
See? I knew you'd be good for an argument if I primed and goaded you enough.

The Trinity is more comprehensible to me than the Incarnation. Anyhow, it's way past my bedtime. I'll be back to provoke you later.

If I had to pick (do I??) one over the other for incomprehensibility, I'd be stumped.  I guess, in a very, very vague kind of way, the Incarnation might be slightly (very, very slightly) less incomprehensible to me than the Trinity.  I mean, if God is God then He can (or at least should be able to) do anything that God can do.  So, wait a minute....He can become "human" in order to die on a cross (but only the "human" really died...or did he??) in order to not be dead and that is some kind of sacrifice??  Is my confusion clear??  But, moving right along here, I guess without the Trinity the Incarnation doesn't make sense.

Oy vey ist mir!!!!!!!!!!!  I eagerly await your provocative response.  Sleep tight, my friend! :)

Hey, Dirigible, where are you with all of this??  Or anyone else, for that matter.
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#86
(05-15-2015, 04:20 PM)J Michael Wrote: Hey, Dirigible, where are you with all of this??  Or anyone else, for that matter.

I go with what I remember from Nikitas Stithatos in the Philokalia. I may be misremembering what he said, on the subject of the manner in which man is made in the image of God, but as I recall the gist is that man is composed of body, mind and spirit, each is which is nothing other than human, and yet, only together do they comprise a man. In like manner, God is composed of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each of which is nothing other than God, and yet, only together do they comprise God.

The reality is, of course, beyond any explanation anyone could give, but this way of looking at it settles my mind on the matter.
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#87
(05-15-2015, 05:07 PM)Dirigible Wrote:
(05-15-2015, 04:20 PM)J Michael Wrote: Hey, Dirigible, where are you with all of this??  Or anyone else, for that matter.

I go with what I remember from Nikitas Stithatos in the Philokalia. I may be misremembering what he said, on the subject of the manner in which man is made in the image of God, but as I recall the gist is that man is composed of body, mind and spirit, each is which is nothing other than human, and yet, only together do they comprise a man. In like manner, God is composed of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each of which is nothing other than God, and yet, only together do they comprise God.

The reality is, of course, beyond any explanation anyone could give, but this way of looking at it settles my mind on the matter.

Hmm.......Okay.....That at least partially addresses my concerns.  And yet others, Jews (and others) for example, would deny the trinitarian aspect of God.  Unfortunately, I don't recall much Jewish theology, so can't explain their defense of that at the moment.

So, what about the whole notion of God sacrificing Himself for His creatures and my questions about that?  C'mon, man, give us a little more "meat" here, to chew on! :) :)

Time for me to do some reading and praying.  Thanks to our dear Mr. Old, I've had to dig out my copy of Frank Sheed's "Theology For Beginners".  Ha!  That's a laugh!  What are you before you're a beginner?  Me! :LOL:
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#88
(05-15-2015, 07:35 PM)J Michael Wrote: So, what about the whole notion of God sacrificing Himself for His creatures and my questions about that?  C'mon, man, give us a little more "meat" here, to chew on! :) :)

I have absolutely no idea.

(05-15-2015, 07:35 PM)J Michael Wrote: Time for me to do some reading and praying.  Thanks to our dear Mr. Old, I've had to dig out my copy of Frank Sheed's "Theology For Beginners".  Ha!  That's a laugh!  What are you before you're a beginner?  Me! :LOL:

Consider how many heresies might have been cut short if their proponents had had the humility to go back and re-read theology for beginners when they hit a point of confusion.
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#89
The safe bet is always to assume one is bordering on heresy whenever one speaks about the trinity :P

God sacrificed in the sense that the sacrifice was not only Calvary, but the incarnation itself (remember that verse of Philippians that says basically that Jesus, being in the form of God, emptied Himself and took the form of a slave).

About the trinity vs. the Jews (see what I did there?): I remember reading Maimonides talking how in general the thinker, the process of thinking and the thought are distinct necessary things for intellection (basic Aristotle). And yet, because God is simple, these must be one “thing” in God. This is basically how St. Augustine and St. Thomas deal with the trinity. What I would ask the Jews and Mohammedans is, does your God think? Plotinus, of course, would answer “no”, he just stands there. Allah, of course, is a petty demiurge. I don't see how the Jews who supposedly hold to the Old Testament God would adopt a neo-platonic metaphysics and deny the personality of God, so to speak.

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#90
(05-15-2015, 08:21 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: The safe bet is always to assume one is bordering on heresy whenever one speaks about the trinity :P

:afraidsmiley:

(05-15-2015, 08:21 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: God sacrificed in the sense that the sacrifice was not only Calvary, but the incarnation itself (remember that verse of Philippians that says basically that Jesus, being in the form of God, emptied Himself and took the form of a slave).

An often forgotten point!

(05-15-2015, 08:21 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: About the trinity vs. the Jews (see what I did there?): I remember reading Maimonides talking how in general the thinker, the process of thinking and the thought are distinct necessary things for intellection (basic Aristotle). And yet, because God is simple, these must be one “thing” in God. This is basically how St. Augustine and St. Thomas deal with the trinity. What I would ask the Jews and Mohammedans is, does your God think? Plotinus, of course, would answer “no”, he just stands there. Allah, of course, is a petty demiurge. I don't see how the Jews who supposedly hold to the Old Testament God would adopt a neo-platonic metaphysics and deny the personality of God, so to speak.

I once put this question, when it came to me ill-formed on the spur of the moment, to a Muslim scholar: if you insist on such an absolutely simple God, how can your God do anything? He either didn't understand, or else claimed not to to get rid of me.
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