Good and Evil; Commoner's Views.
#20
(04-07-2015, 12:54 PM)J Michael Wrote: You'll find any excuse or reason to criticize the Church, to find fault with her and deny her, won't you?  Is it because you are trying to find a way back to her and want us or others to provide you with air-tight, convincing arguments for doing so, or is it because you need to find ways to rationalize leaving her?  Sorry, but I had to ask.

No, not any excuse.  I realized that when I was Catholic, I assumed that whatever the Church taught was true, without giving it any critical thought.  Then once I actually started looking at things that didn't make sense, wrestling with trying to find a reconciliation, and not finding one, I decided I was no longer going to accept the Church's word without it proving itself.  By this, I don't mean I think no reconciliation can be found, rather I just haven't found it.  But, if the Church is going to tell me that something is objective truth, and that I must believe it or suffer eternal torment, then the burden of proof is on the Church to prove why it's correct.  The burden is not on me to blindly comply.  Some of the things I say are my way of testing to see if the hole in an argument that I perceive is really a hole, or just a shadow of something else.  I'm not omniscient, I understand that there are points I may have not considered or may not even be aware of that may change my understanding of them.  When I put something out there, and I get responses that show I'm not thinking correctly, I can weigh it to see if it adds up, and if it does, I change my mind.  If I make an accusation, and all I hear back is "Heretic!  Burn him!," then I know that either there is no answer to my accusation/question, or if there is, even the supporters within the Church don't know what that answer is.  If the former, there is no reason for me to trust the Church; if the latter, the Church, insofar as I am in touch with it, is incompetent to give me reason to have faith in it.  One thing is for sure, though; I will never give the Church the benefit of the doubt again.  If it expects me to believe something, it must show me, in a way I can understand, why I must believe it.

Quote:Yes, I think we moderns ARE misguided when it comes to what "happiness" is and means, especially those of us in the West.  We equate happiness with feeling good.  And, if we don't feel good, we're not happy.  And if it feels good, do it.  And if it feels good, and we do it, it must, ergo, be good, even though the "it" may actually be objectively bad or sinful.  If the Church teaches that in heaven we will experience perfect happiness eternally.  What that means precisely for *then*, I'm not entirely sure.  But what it (happiness) means for us here and now in this life is, especially if we call ourselves Christians, has to be about being and doing objective, knowable good, rather than it being just about a subjective and relative feeling which is eminently changeable.  Is that not the or a basis for the trap of moral relativism?

Well, yeah.  If we don't feel good, we're NOT happy.  We might not be happy when we feel good as well, but when you don't feel good, you're not happy.  You can still be joyful about things.  Happiness is a feeling; it is not a verb like love.  Happiness isn't the action of doing good.  Happiness is in the feeling of good.  When one helps out at a homeless shelter, or visits the sick or prisoners, or helps the poor, that feeling of goodness and content that one gets, that's not happiness.  It may be better than happiness, but it's not happiness.  It's something else.  For heaven to be appealing to sinners, there has to be hope that heaven can provide them with happiness greater than what they are able experience now.  If the Church is not actually promising eternal happiness, according to modern usage, but rather an eternity of...moral indentured servitude if you will, then the Church has just detached from the audience it's supposed to be preaching to.  The Church is at enmity with the lost.
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Messages In This Thread
Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-04-2015, 03:47 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-04-2015, 11:01 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-04-2015, 09:54 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-05-2015, 08:57 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-05-2015, 10:07 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-06-2015, 08:48 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-06-2015, 09:09 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-06-2015, 12:13 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-06-2015, 05:09 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-06-2015, 06:42 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 10:57 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 02:31 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 04:11 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 05:06 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-07-2015, 05:56 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 06:57 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 07:57 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-07-2015, 11:41 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-08-2015, 07:39 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-08-2015, 05:22 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-08-2015, 10:23 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-08-2015, 10:31 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-09-2015, 09:14 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-09-2015, 11:37 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-09-2015, 12:27 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-09-2015, 01:45 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-09-2015, 05:00 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-18-2015, 08:37 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-19-2015, 05:18 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-19-2015, 07:17 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-21-2015, 01:55 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-21-2015, 05:23 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-21-2015, 06:26 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-27-2015, 12:53 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-10-2015, 11:39 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-12-2015, 08:57 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-12-2015, 10:16 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-14-2015, 06:55 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-15-2015, 12:28 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-15-2015, 01:52 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-15-2015, 11:59 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-17-2015, 03:32 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-17-2015, 09:17 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-17-2015, 09:23 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-17-2015, 05:06 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-20-2015, 03:30 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-20-2015, 11:32 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-20-2015, 04:57 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-20-2015, 07:17 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-20-2015, 09:41 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-21-2015, 12:36 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-21-2015, 12:41 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-21-2015, 05:27 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-21-2015, 06:04 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-21-2015, 07:10 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-21-2015, 07:12 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-22-2015, 05:02 PM



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