Good and Evil; Commoner's Views.
#99
(05-17-2015, 09:17 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(04-20-2015, 11:59 AM)J Michael Wrote:
(04-19-2015, 08:04 PM)Dirigible Wrote: I meant "offence" in a very particular way, and I should have chosen a different word. Allow me to rephrase: if you just bluntly say "everything bad you do is your fault, and you can't be proud of anything good you do", it will, if the person is not already predisposed to agree, strike them as absurd and monstrous and, in order to avoid this reaction, one should phrase oneself more carefully and reach the same idea by a more circuitous route.

But why sugar coat this particular extremely important truth?  Now, I agree that you don't have to bludgeon someone with it in a nasty or disagreeable manner but getting all gushy and p.c. so as not to offend strikes me as even more absurd and monstrous than speaking the truth...in love.  In a way, though, this particular truth, given the ethos of these times in which nothing is anybody's fault but is always someone else's fault, in which people have been taught extremely effectively to avoid and deflect responsibility for their own actions, in which virtually anything said can be a cause of grievous offense because we are all so incredibly fragile and sensitive, would strike many people as absurd and even monstrous, so contrary is it to the unreality of our  times.

I'm a perfect example of the person who finds it absurd and monstrous that everything wrong is only my fault, and nothing I do right can I take credit for.  This is Calvinism.  I understand full well that everything I have that is good was ultimately given to me, something I did not create myself.  Yet, at the same time, if God gave me a free will, then when I choose to do good, I deserve the credit for that.  Either I chose to act rightly, and thus the good came from me, or God made the good choice for me because I was incapable, in which case, I am inherently evil and can only be so because God made me that way.  We can't have a truly free will and at the same time be incapable of doing good on our own.  This is logically impossible.  If our "free" will only allows us one choice that we can take credit for, evil, then our will isn't actually free.  This is why it is absurd and monstrous to rational thinkers.

I think the reason why you need to sugar coat the truth is because, as the Church, your mission is to save sinners and convert them to Christ.  If someone needs to have the truth sugar coated in order to accept that, and you then suggest that this truth is too important to be sugar coated, which are you more concerned about?  The pristine truth, or the salvation of souls?  I'm not saying the purity of truth is unimportant, but what is the Church's first mission?  What did Christ come to earth and die for?  It wasn't the proper definition of truth.

Yes, of course one has merits for one's good acts. I think what Oldavid and the subsequent commentators were talking about was the ontological aspect of the good, which must not be mixed with the ethical. Just like saying that ontologically the evil is nothing does not mean that ethically it is something (and that in the divine economy it can even be used to bring good things, not that it ontologically generates a thing). And of course, in the salvation economy this also means that it is by grace that we merit something: only if sanctifying grace is in us can our acts merit something (not that those in sin cannot ask things of God, they can and God listens, and they can even predispose themselves for the receiving of grace).
Both to say that by the free will alone one merits eternal life (the end of man) and to say that one cannot (in grace) do any good is condemned by Trent.

Now, in no way this is Calvinism. Calvinism says that every act is evil, even good acts—basically every good act is a mortal sin. But these are covered by the merits of Christ.

Also, souls cannot be saved apart from truth. Christ Himself said a bunch of things that were kinda hard, and the Church proclaims things hard to take. But one should not despair, but calmly think the issues over (proper evangelization takes years, its not simply saying a prayer).

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Messages In This Thread
Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-04-2015, 03:47 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-04-2015, 11:01 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-04-2015, 09:54 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-05-2015, 08:57 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-05-2015, 10:07 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-06-2015, 08:48 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-06-2015, 09:09 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-06-2015, 12:13 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-06-2015, 05:09 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-06-2015, 06:42 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 10:57 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 02:31 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 04:11 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 05:06 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-07-2015, 05:56 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 06:57 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-07-2015, 07:57 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-07-2015, 11:41 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-08-2015, 07:39 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-08-2015, 05:22 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-08-2015, 10:23 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-08-2015, 10:31 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-09-2015, 09:14 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-09-2015, 11:37 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-09-2015, 12:27 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-09-2015, 01:45 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-09-2015, 05:00 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-18-2015, 08:37 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-19-2015, 05:18 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-19-2015, 07:17 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-21-2015, 01:55 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-21-2015, 05:23 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 04-21-2015, 06:26 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 04-27-2015, 12:53 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-10-2015, 11:39 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-12-2015, 08:57 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-12-2015, 10:16 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-14-2015, 06:55 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-15-2015, 12:28 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-15-2015, 01:52 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-15-2015, 11:59 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-17-2015, 03:32 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-17-2015, 09:17 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-17-2015, 09:23 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-17-2015, 05:06 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Renatus Frater - 05-17-2015, 08:51 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-20-2015, 03:30 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-20-2015, 11:32 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-20-2015, 04:57 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-20-2015, 07:17 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-20-2015, 09:41 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-21-2015, 12:36 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-21-2015, 12:41 AM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-21-2015, 05:27 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Oldavid - 05-21-2015, 06:04 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-21-2015, 07:10 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-21-2015, 07:12 PM
Re: Good and Evil; Commoner's Views. - by Melkite - 05-22-2015, 05:02 PM



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