Traditional catholic arguments against Zionism.
#1
Well. Title says it all. Does anyone care to shed some light on this matter? Is there anything that can be used against the foul notion of Zionism?
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#2
Why is this important to you?  You may want to check the section "Judaism, Religious Zionism, etc.."  I'm sure you'll find plenty of discussion about it there.  Do we really need yet another new thread about it?
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#3
My thoughts exactly, J Michael. 

Ironically, this thread could become yet another argument against traditional Catholicism.  I can tell you that certain traditionalists' paranoia about Jews was a major factor in preventing me from going to my first traditional Latin Mass for a long, long time.

Some of the people dearest to me as a child, as a teenager and right up to the present are Jews.  And so I find this kind of garbage offensive and counterproductive.

Focus on your own salvation and sanctification.  I can assure you that an obsession with "Zionism" will hinder the second and could eventually imperil the first.
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#4
(04-08-2015, 04:18 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: My thoughts exactly, J Michael. 

Ironically, this thread could become yet another argument against traditional Catholicism.  I can tell you that certain traditionalists' paranoia about Jews was a major factor in preventing me from going to my first traditional Latin Mass for a long, long time.

Some of the people dearest to me as a child, as a teenager and right up to the present are Jews.  And so I find this kind of garbage offensive and counterproductive.

Focus on your own salvation and sanctification.  I can assure you that an obsession with "Zionism" will hinder the second and could eventually imperil the first.

^This.
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#5
Bother, I was hoping for a nice two minutes hate.
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#6
Well, orthodox Jewish teaching holds that the Holy Land is off limits until the Messiah has come. So, I suppose, only Christians (and maybe even Muslims?) are entitled from a theological perspective to the territory due to their recognition of the Messiah. So, bring back the Kingdom of Jerusalem, pop a Habsburg on the throne, and then go from there?
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#7
The founder of Zionism, Theodor Herzl, was an atheist who traveled around Europe promoting his cause. Zionism is, in its inception, a secular ethno-nationalist movement, akin to other forms of petty, romantic identitarianism that emerged around the same time (Pan-Slavism, Pan-Germanism, Italian nationalism, etc.), and which defied the traditional structures of authority that long characterized European political life and social thought. They were, at their heart, revolutionary secular ideologies, although religion was occasionally used to bolster the case of national distinctness.

Theodor Herzl was actually granted an audience with the sainted Pope Pius X. Here is what the Holy Father told that atheistic servant of the father of lies:

(From Herzl's diary)
http://www.ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/p...-herzl1904

Quote:"Noi non possiamo favorire questo movimento. Non potremo impedire gli Ebrei di andare a Gerusalemme—ma favorire non possiamo mai. La terra di Gerusalemme se non era sempre santa, è santificata per la vita di Jesu Christo (he did not pronounce it Gesu, but Yesu, in the Venetian fashion). Io come capo della chiesa non posso dirle altra cosa. Gli Ebrei non hanno riconosciuto nostro Signore, perciò non possiamo riconoscere il popolo ebreo [We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem—but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people]."

Hence the conflict between Rome, represented by him, and Jerusalem, represented by me, was once again opened up.

At the outset, to be sure, I tried to be conciliatory. I recited my little piece about extraterritorialization, res sacrae extra commercium [holy places removed from business]. It didn't make much of an impression. Gerusalemme, he said, must not get into the hands of the Jews.

"And its present status, Holy Father?"

"I know, it is not pleasant to see the Turks in possession of our Holy Places. We simply have to put up with that. But to support the Jews in the acquisition of the Holy Places, that we cannot do."

I said that our point of departure had been solely the distress of the Jews and that we desired to avoid the religious issues.

"Yes, but we, and I as the head of the Church, cannot do this. There are two possibilities. Either the Jews will cling to their faith and continue to await the Messiah who, for us, has already appeared. In that case they will be denying the divinity of Jesus and we cannot help them. Or else they will go there without any religion, and then we can be even less favorable to them.

"The Jewish religion was the foundation of our own; but it was superseded by the teachings of Christ, and we cannot concede it any further validity. The Jews, who ought to have been the first to acknowledge Jesus Christ, have not done so to this day."


It was on the tip of my tongue to say, "That's what happens in every family. No one believes in his own relatives." But I said instead: "Terror and persecution may not have been the right means for enlightening the Jews."

But he rejoined, and this time he was magnificent in his simplicity:

"Our Lord came without power. Era povero [He was poor]. He came in pace [in peace]. He persecuted no one. He was persecuted.

He was abbandonato [forsaken] even by his apostles. Only later did he grow in stature. It took three centuries for the Church to evolve. The Jews therefore had time to acknowledge his divinity without any pressure. But they haven't done so to this day."

"But, Holy Father, the Jews are in terrible straits. I don't know if Your Holiness is acquainted with the full extent of this sad situation. We need a land for these persecuted people."

"Does it have to be Gerusalemme?"

"We are not asking for Jerusalem, but for Palestine—only the secular land."

"We cannot be in favor of it."

"Does Your Holiness know the situation of the Jews?"

"Yes, from my Mantua days. Jews live there. And I have always been on good terms with Jews. Only the other evening two Jews were here to see me. After all, there are other bonds than those of religion: courtesy and philanthropy. These we do not deny to the Jews. Indeed, we also pray for them: that their minds be enlightened. This very day the Church is celebrating the feast of an unbeliever who, on the road to Damascus, became miraculously converted to the true faith. And so, if you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we shall have churches and priests ready
to baptize all of you."
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#8
(04-08-2015, 04:44 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(04-08-2015, 04:18 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: My thoughts exactly, J Michael. 

Ironically, this thread could become yet another argument against traditional Catholicism.  I can tell you that certain traditionalists' paranoia about Jews was a major factor in preventing me from going to my first traditional Latin Mass for a long, long time.

Some of the people dearest to me as a child, as a teenager and right up to the present are Jews.  And so I find this kind of garbage offensive and counterproductive.

Focus on your own salvation and sanctification.  I can assure you that an obsession with "Zionism" will hinder the second and could eventually imperil the first.

^This.

Your Israeli citizenship is something that many Jews of good conscience would refuse to hold, because they see it as incompatible not just with their sanctification, but with basic human decency. I am astounded by the gall that you, an Israeli citizen, would dare to chime in, supporting the idea that those who are a little too fixated on the criminality of the Zionist Entity put their salvation at risk.

Do the Arabs here say that those who oppose Arab nationalism put their salvation at risk?
Do the French here say that Francophobes potentially put their salvation at risk?
Do the British say that Anglophobes potentially put their salvation at risk?

No, yet again, Jews are the exceptional people. As a people, they alone have been defined by the corporate, collective rejection of Christ, and that is why the world (which hates Christ and rebels against the order of the Logos) grants the Jews this privilege. The synagogue, in its blindness and vanity, is a counterpoint to the Church. Jews are worthy of our pity, and they need our prayers, but the exposure of the evil wrought by the hands of some Jews, as they defy the God that justly destroyed their temple and scattered them among nations, is a Christian duty.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...nagoga.jpg
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#9
(04-08-2015, 04:18 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: My thoughts exactly, J Michael. 

Ironically, this thread could become yet another argument against traditional Catholicism.  I can tell you that certain traditionalists' paranoia about Jews was a major factor in preventing me from going to my first traditional Latin Mass for a long, long time.

But the question was about Zionism, not about Jews. There are lots of Jews who aren't Zionist. In fact, every rabbi before Herzl was against Zionism, as were all Popes before Vatican II. 

Me, I think this issue is extremely important given Protestant Dispensationalism, AIPAC and its power over the American Congress, Israeli spying, the fact that Israel has nuclear capabilities, the urging of the U.S. to war against Iran, etc.  That last could have extremely serious ramifications -- WWIII-style ramifications.
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#10
(04-08-2015, 06:21 PM)Cyriacus Wrote:
(04-08-2015, 04:44 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(04-08-2015, 04:18 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: My thoughts exactly, J Michael. 

Ironically, this thread could become yet another argument against traditional Catholicism.  I can tell you that certain traditionalists' paranoia about Jews was a major factor in preventing me from going to my first traditional Latin Mass for a long, long time.

Some of the people dearest to me as a child, as a teenager and right up to the present are Jews.  And so I find this kind of garbage offensive and counterproductive.

Focus on your own salvation and sanctification.  I can assure you that an obsession with "Zionism" will hinder the second and could eventually imperil the first.

^This.

Your Israeli citizenship is something that many Jews of good conscience would refuse to hold, because they see it as incompatible not just with their sanctification, but with basic human decency. I am astounded by the gall that you, an Israeli citizen, would dare to chime in, supporting the idea that those who are a little too fixated on the criminality of the Zionist Entity put their salvation at risk.

Do the Arabs here say that those who oppose Arab nationalism put their salvation at risk?
Do the French here say that Francophobes potentially put their salvation at risk?
Do the British say that Anglophobes potentially put their salvation at risk?

No, yet again, Jews are the exceptional people. As a people, they alone have been defined by the corporate, collective rejection of Christ, and that is why the world (which hates Christ and rebels against the order of the Logos) grants the Jews this privilege. The synagogue, in its blindness and vanity, is a counterpoint to the Church. Jews are worthy of our pity, and they need our prayers, but the exposure of the evil wrought by the hands of some Jews, as they defy the God that justly destroyed their temple and scattered them among nations, is a Christian duty.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...nagoga.jpg

It ain't gall, habibi, it's called chutzpah! :P  And we Jews are known for our over-abundance of it  :grin: .  At the time I was given Israeli citizenship, it was either take it and serve in the military and have the right/privilege to vote or refuse it and serve in the military (yes, at that time even permanent residents, Jewish or otherwise, had to fulfill a military obligation) and not have the right/privilege to vote.  The third option was to just leave the country.  I wasn't interested in options 2 or 3.  But all that was about 35 years ago or so.  I've changed a little since then--well, I hope so anyway.  I could renounce my Israeli citizenship but it hardly seems worth the effort and at this stage in my life would be an empty symbolic gesture.  Besides, it'd be a HUGE logistical and linguistic pain in the ass.

As for chiming in, חבר שלי, unless and until Vox bans me from this board or unless and until I see fit, I'll do so as and when I please, תודה רבה

Oh, by the way, Христос Воскрес!!  :)
And !המשיח קם

As for obsessions, istm that virtually any obsession, whether of Zionism, Arab nationalism, politics in general, or pretty much anything you might care to name could quite easily hinder one's sanctification and imperil one's salvation. 
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