question on sensitive issue
#1
I would be very grateful if this thread wasn't at all graphic in the terminology etc just for the sake of sensitive people reading.

I'm not married but just seeking the truth. There were some discussions on this on catholic answers forums that seemed to contradict what I read before.

There are 2 views...

- anything is allowed in marriage except sodomy as long as marital act leading to conception happens (most people tend to have this view)

- certain things are incompatible with dignity of marriage and human beings. (Dietrich con Hildebrand and his wife tend to gravitate towards this view if Alice von Hildebrand"s article was understood rightly by me).

I feel more comfortable with the second... But what is the Church's position? Not looking for opinions here butdiscussion of Church teaching :) please in theleast graphic  way if possible thanks :)
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#2
(04-28-2015, 10:19 AM)little_flower10 Wrote: - certain things are incompatible with dignity of marriage and human beings. (Dietrich con Hildebrand and his wife tend to gravitate towards this view if Alice von Hildebrand"s article was understood rightly by me).

Can you please post a link to the article or tell us what book it's in?
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#3
I'm sorry I can't copy and paste links on my phone and that's my only access to internet... But if you do a search for "Dietrich von Hildebrand and Christopher West" there's an article by his wife Alice that mentions something like this I think. I don't know much about West and it seems there are different interpretations of his writings (and which are more or less accurate), but I liked the description of Dietrich von Hildebrand's views.
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#4
(04-28-2015, 10:19 AM)little_flower10 Wrote: I would be very grateful if this thread wasn't at all graphic in the terminology etc just for the sake of sensitive people reading.

I'm not married but just seeking the truth. There were some discussions on this on catholic answers forums that seemed to contradict what I read before.

There are 2 views...

- anything is allowed in marriage except sodomy as long as marital act leading to conception happens (most people tend to have this view)

- certain things are incompatible with dignity of marriage and human beings. (Dietrich con Hildebrand and his wife tend to gravitate towards this view if Alice von Hildebrand"s article was understood rightly by me).

I feel more comfortable with the second... But what is the Church's position? Not looking for opinions here butdiscussion of Church teaching :) please in theleast graphic  way if possible thanks :)

I'm familiar with what you're talking about.  This is based on a disagreement between Christopher West, and Dr. Alice von Hildebrand (a brilliant woman, by the way).  The link below is to an article written by Dr. Hildebrand.  Christopher West is just a shock jock theologian.  He knows some big words, he's written some books, and he's given some talks and has a following (because he's very charismatic).  That doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about.  I know I'm answering your question in a way you specifically said you weren't looking for an answer, but I felt I should explain a bit further where this disagreement comes from.  Dr. Hildebrand is no prudish old lady- she writes and talks about sex all the time.  Her criticisms are well worth considering.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/n...-the-body/
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#5
I'll read Alice's article later tonight, but one cannot ignore the recent talk by Dr. Feser. I know its funny the way he talks about the issue, but its funny like a biologist would be funny.




By the way, his is the first position.

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#6
While I think the first position is the correct one, it has nothing to do with Christopher West, whose theories I don't go for at all. The Church has a choice: use nature as the limit of what is possible provided conception is also possible vs make up a list of all acceptable sexual positions, acts, etc. No matter how eloquent and refined one tries to be, I think it will also boil down to something that amounts to this. So I think the first position is the correct one, all the while in general liking Alice von H's theories and disliking those of Christopher W.
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#7
Thank you for the replies... I'm just having trouble with this for particular reasons and how I see marriage.. for example Blessed Anne Catherine wrote how in some occasions where children were conceived there were certain excesses, etc, I'm thinking that marriage can become lustful in some way and even though the couple is married that is not perfect. I think all those other things might contribute to it being more this way. St Anne and St Joachim had a very pure marriage with no lust at all and Blessed Anne Catherine talks about how they were different, so pure and dignified and this was necessary for Our Lady. So I tend to feel more comfortable with the von Hildebrand's idea. I think its more perfect even if the alternative is allowed... But is it allowed? Does the Church actually say and is there something more official like from a Pope?
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#8
I hope I didn't really offend someone... I just tried to think of the most pure marriage. Some things could be more perfect. Am I right? And what is allowed too?
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#9
well, there is the "right"  but, i dont know that part of said right includes anything beyond the whole- allowing for conception thingy...  as a single guy who cant seem to get a second date- ever, i realize my opinions may not count for much... but it seems to me that beyond the right, if one is forcing either party to do _______ that would seem rather disrespectful to me....

If A is the beginning of the act and C is the proper end, then provided both parties are comfortable with "B" and return the favor? then???

but in my work and so forth, i disdain asking anyone to do anything that i am not willing to do myself.. If im not iwlling to clean the bathroom, im not gonna sk you to.  Thats just me...
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#10
I've read the article of Alice von Hildebrand. Very good stuff, I only wish it was more detailed in the argumentation (but maybe in Dietrich's own books). Never heard of this West fella, but he doesn't sound very good. I think she's very right, what is happening is a pornographication of holy matrimony—instead of the sacrament sanctifying the couple, the family and, thus, the society, what is happening is that the invasion of filth in the family and even, alas, in Catholic families. And of course, this is a trend we see in the Church at large: instead of the Church sanctifying the world, the world is corrupting the Church (her human elements, of course, as the Church is Holy).
I think what is lacking in Feser's account is the sense of the mystery of love which is very much emphasized by the von Hildebrand's. To approach a person (any person, much more one who is so closely bound to you as your spouse) as mystery is the only way one should approach a person (basically, the encounter with a person is always saturated phenomena, to use fashionable language).

Now, just the other day Rod Dreher posted a commentary on an article by one Dr. Berman (beware of lady in top bikini and crude language). For those with the stomach, read the quotes there and witness yourself the distance, the absolute vast distance, between a genuinely Catholic view on “sexual ethics” and the modern view.
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