Has Russia Been Consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary?
#31
(05-29-2015, 10:36 PM)Gabriel Serafin Wrote:
(05-29-2015, 08:45 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: Still this sounds like a mystery
I see no mystery. The message is clear. Incidentally, the BVM never  that the "Third Secret," had to be revealed to the world. Yet I bet more time is spent online by the people criticizing the Vatican about releasing the Third Secret than heeding the message of Fatima.  I think the only question that needs to be asked is to one's self. Are we saying the Rosary every day to obtain peace for the world? Are we heeding the call: "Pray, pray a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners"? Each person can only answer for themselves.

In 1946,  Lucy was asked when the Third Secret would be revealed to the world, and without hesitation she said, "In 1960." In 1955 Cardinal Ottaviani asked her why it was not to be opened before 1960. She told him, "because then it will seem clearer (mais claro)."  Lucy had made the Bishop of Fatima-Leiria promise that the Secret would be read TO THE WORLD  at her death, but in no event later than 1960, "because the blessed Virgin wishes it so." And from Canon Barthas:  "Moreover, it [the Third Secret] will soon be known, since Sister Lucy affirms that Our Lady wills that it can be published beginning in 1960."
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#32
(05-28-2015, 09:38 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: NO!!!!

Then Sr. Lucia lied.  Why?
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#33
(05-30-2015, 02:16 PM)agnes therese Wrote:
(05-28-2015, 09:38 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: NO!!!!

Then Sr. Lucia lied.  Why?

Maybe the theory that the older Sr Lucia is an impostor is correct.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopi...rLucys.htm
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#34
I find it hard to believe that Sr. Lucia, a woman who understands the Faith so much, who has seen and conversed with the Blessed Virgin Mary who endured visions of Hell, and who was entirely convinced of it and of the Fatima "message" would simply all of a sudden be too scared of some churchmen and prefer to lie and disobey the Blessed Virgin Mary than to obey her.

Makes zero sense. So the "No" camp has to do better than this. Whether or not it is total lunacy, the only way I can see the "no" camp being right is if in fact the wildest conspiracy theory is the truth. So it is wild conspiracy theory of the murdered Sr. Lucia? Or is it the theory that Our Lady has accepted the consecrations, finally, and although much later than she had ordered them to be done?
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#35
There's no proof at all that Russia has itself been specifically consecrated per the wishes of our Lady. That's the crux of the issue.  The Pope consecrated the world of which Russia is a part,but he did not specifically consecrate Russia by name. What I've never understood is just why on earth is it so hard for the Pope to simply ask his bishops to get together and specifically consecrate Russia, not the world? Why is that so hard? Russia is more Christian than any nation in the West, including Italy, so why should they be offended? They too have a devotion to our Lady, so what's the big deal?

Whatever you may think of Father Gruner and his apostolate they have time and again made a convincing case that the consecration was not done.
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#36
(05-30-2015, 02:33 PM)maldon Wrote: I find it hard to believe that Sr. Lucia, a woman who understands the Faith so much, who has seen and conversed with the Blessed Virgin Mary who endured visions of Hell, and who was entirely convinced of it and of the Fatima "message" would simply all of a sudden be too scared of some churchmen and prefer to lie and disobey the Blessed Virgin Mary than to obey her.

Makes zero sense. So the "No" camp has to do better than this. Whether or not it is total lunacy, the only way I can see the "no" camp being right is if in fact the wildest conspiracy theory is the truth. So it is wild conspiracy theory of the murdered Sr. Lucia? Or is it the theory that Our Lady has accepted the consecrations, finally, and although much later than she had ordered them to be done?

Right, the other side of the issue is, where are all the promises, then? As I said, the way its phrased the triumph seems to be deeply connected to the consecration. So, is Putin the triumph of the IH?

From all the evidence that the third secret was not fully revealed to the not exact consecrations I don't think it would be that easy to dismiss the other side.
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#37
(05-30-2015, 06:42 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: where are all the promises, then? As I said, the way its phrased the triumph seems to be deeply connected to the consecration. So, is Putin the triumph of the IH?
The question is, what do you imagine the triumph looks like? For 70 years Russia was, in a sense, demonically possessed and we have film of churches being demolished and the Christian faith was suppressed. It seems like today we don't need the conversion of Russia, rather we need the conversion of the United States, as Western cultural rot is corrupting the entire world.

As for Russia, it was practically overnight that communism vanished from Russia and now the faith there is flourishing; Leningrad is again St. Petersburg, etc. Contrast the following two videos:


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#38
Renatus,

OK, so we can doubt that Sr. Lucia is "real" (wild conspiracy theory).

Or we can doubt the whole promises thing.  For me, this can be resolved. I mean, as Gabriel suggested above, Russia is doing a 180 from the previous highway to hell.Fair enough. To be fair, though, the US and the West are much, much worse. So what gives? I think a lot of things are possible here. Russia has spread her errors. The errors infecting the US and the West in general are Russia's errors that have spread across the globe. So it is possible, from a "Yes" perspective, that the Triumph is underway, beginning with the nation that was at the center of the cancer (Russia), and over time (and some serious miracles!) the West will come around. I do think that virtually inexplicable things took place in a short time that released Russia from the Communist atheist grip. However, this did not come about without serious upheaval, economic collapses one after the other, hunger and despair, and a great deal of uncertainty. We in the West might do well to take a close look at what this sort of thing looks like, because we may be in for a good dose of it ourselves. In addition, it may very well be that Russia is simply a much stronger country than anything in the West, as far as its people and their culture are concerned, so it may not actually be that difficult for Russia to convert the West. The West is a place of such superficial "values" and such changeable priorities and is suffering from such an absolute vacuum of anything profound, that we may very well see the West change quickly. Either way, the point is that we can never know "what part of the movie we are in" if we are ourselves inside the movie, if you know what I mean.

Obviously, there are only 2 answers to the OP question: yes or no.
Of the "No" answers, I think only the wild conspiracy theory makes any logical sense. Though it is wild conspiracy theory. I don't buy it.
Of the "Yes" answers, I think that a kumbaya "it was all done yay!" option does not work. The only one that I think would work is the one in which we say the consecration was not done properly and was not made public before 1960 as requested, but that Our Lady has accepted the low-budget versions that were done afterward, as a result of which, the Triumph has begun, in Russia, and will proceed, perhaps more slowly than it should have, just as the low-budget consecrations proceeded slowly and weakly as well, but that it is ongoing. Even in the dying West, there are strange things afoot. Millions of people marching in France (seriously? France?). Vocations among traditionalist and conservative Catholic groups continues steadily, and those from rotten groups are not. This will make things easier at a certain point. The places in the West where the Church is most ridiculous, the sickest places, are dying out. They have powerful prelates, yes, but they are a dying breed among emptying parishes. I'm thinking Germany right now . . .  whereas in zones like Africa there is hope.

You know, we got a Polish pope when Communism was still around. Then we got a German pope when the chief threats were inside the Church, and we know now that some of the biggest are from Germany. This may not be coincidental. We now have a pope who is very big on risk-taking and seemingly has no problem with chaos and arguments flying wildly in the Church. This sort of thing pains me, but this pope's manner of governing has led to a great deal of good churchmen speaking out more loudly and clearly than ever before. Battle lines are being drawn very clearly in the Church today. During Benedict's reign, there was always a sense that he was not in control, that people were doing all sorts of things secretly around him, lying to his face and behaving in underhanded ways all the time. So now we get a pope whose manner brings out everyone's secrets, whose manner leads to clarification. He is a cause of great confusion, yes, but it is actually causing a lot of festering wounds to get exposed to the light of day. perhaps this is what was really needed right now, a clarifying moment in the Church. If so, this will be one more rung on the Triumph ladder. For all we know, the upcoming Synod will do not much of anything, and this pope will just reach an agreement with the Orthodox, who Benedict had already said are part of the Church of Jesus Christ. If all he did was create some confusion and lead to closer ties with Russia, he would still have done something good. He is furthering recognition of Palestine. Such a small, seemingly unimportant thing, unless you are a Christian Arab, or a Christian living in the Holy Land, or battling militant Islam in some way.

Sorry for the long rambling answer, Renatus. But it is possible that we are in the development of the Triumph, though in our "neighbourhood" things don't look so good.
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#39
Maldon,

Alright. If you read my earlier post you'll find out that your Yes answer is precisely my No response (and I never said anything about a fake Sister Lucia). The full, proper consecration was never made for whatever reason, but some consecration was made (you know, just like new rite holy water is holy, but its not quite old rite holy water). In this sense I'd disagree with you that the this is a Yes-No question. We both seem to tend to a “not quite” response.

As to Russia's situation: I'll just reiterate that I'm a bit skeptical right now about their sincerity. Russia until quite recently had the world's largest abortion rates, and even though they might not like the gays they are not the shining examples of virtue. They are turning around, yes, but when we moderns think of triumph we think big explosions and stuff happening all at once. Not this slow, constant slope growth.

As to an approximation to the Orthodox, what do you mean? I hope you realize how adopting their scheme of remarriage is absolutely unacceptable. Want to reunite with Easterners? Abolish the NOM forever and ever and pass a law prohibiting any other liturgy designed by committee. Given the whole Oikonomia thing, it might not even be an issue for Easterners that in the West we simply don't do two wives.
The simple fact is, barring divine intervention they will not come back to the Catholic Church. They can't even get along with Greeks and Lebanese, how are we to expect for them to get along with Italians and Frenches? Now, Russians becoming Catholics would definitely be a miracle.

I guess I'll just suspend judgment on the whole Fatima thing for now. My hands are quite full handling my own purgation and sanctification.

Also, I don't mind lengthy posts—we're not on twitter, right.
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#40
Hey Renatus, sorry if I came across as disagreeing with you. I only addressed it to you because I thought what you were saying was interesting, and in fact I agree with you on pretty much everything you say. I do find it interesting that there is a Yes-ish/No-ish  answer to the question, in which both are possible, if you add the -ish. Maddening, if you are really into this sort of detail. I am not. I love Our Lady, pray her rosary every day, visit her shrines, cultivate a Mary garden, and so on. The details will not really make a difference to my life.

By the way, I don't see any sort of Orthodox reunion thing happening just like that either. It would take miracles, ones we do not foresee at the moment. I don't know much about the Orthodox, but I do know they have the Sacraments and they are a part of the Church as a result. Again, either way, I can't see how it would affect my life. But I do think we will begin to see very important changes in the Church very soon.

Here is a question for a thread: what do you think would happen in the Church if Pope Francis died today, suddenly? All kinds of cards on the table, and a mad scramble for the chips.
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