Roman Breviary questions
#11
I meant say Terce to None are the same five days a week!  Brain failure!
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#12
This is the fifth day in a row  of the Sunday Psalms in 1960....  Vespers has had a little variation in the last Festal Psalm,  and though the last couple days used the daily Psalter for the Little Hours but almost feels like an Octave... 
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#13
(07-02-2015, 04:57 PM)Uxi Wrote: This is the fifth day in a row  of the Sunday Psalms in 1960....  Vespers has had a little variation in the last Festal Psalm,  and though the last couple days used the daily Psalter for the Little Hours but almost feels like an Octave...

Frankly, this is one of the reasons that urged me to create this thread and say the things that I did. Wink

I switched to the LOTH today just to get away from the sameness. I vastly prefer the Gradual Psalms to the "Law Psalm"(s) of 118. Having the same ones for 5 days straight is murderous. I can understand why priests back in the old days often whispered their breviary at lightning-speed, just to get through the tedium.
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#14
(07-02-2015, 04:57 PM)Uxi Wrote: This is the fifth day in a row  of the Sunday Psalms in 1960....  Vespers has had a little variation in the last Festal Psalm,  and though the last couple days used the daily Psalter for the Little Hours but almost feels like an Octave...

So, correct me if I am wrong, for First Class Feasts, the 1960 Roman Office has Psalm 118 from Prime to None.

However, what is the case for Second Class Feasts like Today?

How comes Lauds has Festal Psalms but the Little Hours were ferial?  Also, since Prime to None was ferial why wasn't Compline ferial (I am taking my info from DO and it seems like Sunday Compline was given for the Feast of the Visitation)?

This perplexes me. 
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#15
(07-02-2015, 10:42 PM)Solatium Miserorum Wrote:
(07-02-2015, 04:57 PM)Uxi Wrote: This is the fifth day in a row  of the Sunday Psalms in 1960....  Vespers has had a little variation in the last Festal Psalm,  and though the last couple days used the daily Psalter for the Little Hours but almost feels like an Octave...

So, correct me if I am wrong, for First Class Feasts, the 1960 Roman Office has Psalm 118 from Prime to None.

However, what is the case for Second Class Feasts like Today?

How comes Lauds has Festal Psalms but the Little Hours were ferial?  Also, since Prime to None was ferial why wasn't Compline ferial (I am taking my info from DO and it seems like Sunday Compline was given for the Feast of the Visitation)?

This perplexes me.

You're in good company,it perplexes me too. It's been troubling me a lot lately.
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#16
(07-02-2015, 09:01 PM)Heorot Wrote:
(07-02-2015, 04:57 PM)Uxi Wrote: This is the fifth day in a row  of the Sunday Psalms in 1960....  Vespers has had a little variation in the last Festal Psalm,  and though the last couple days used the daily Psalter for the Little Hours but almost feels like an Octave...

Frankly, this is one of the reasons that urged me to create this thread and say the things that I did. Wink

I switched to the LOTH today just to get away from the sameness. I vastly prefer the Gradual Psalms to the "Law Psalm"(s) of 118. Having the same ones for 5 days straight is murderous. I can understand why priests back in the old days often whispered their breviary at lightning-speed, just to get through the tedium.

After awhile of praying the Office a sense of dryness can creep in on certain days,or at certain hours, but this is just part of our interior life. The sameness,the routine, builds character and a foundation so that later,after decades of fidelity, the psalms and hymns and feasts of the Office and the liturgical year become a part of you.  In any endeavor we hit the doldrums but pushing through is key.

I love the Office, but I too hit dry patches. I never regret pushing through with an hour but I usually regret skipping one, especially if I actually have time and it's just laziness that's stopping me.

Part of why the Opus Dei became the Onus Dei for many priests pre Vatican II is twofold:
1. Let's face it, many priests did not adequately understand Latin, making the breviary just arcane gibberish to them.
2. Making one bound under pain of mortal sin to pray every hour every day without exception really is a burden leading to resentments, legalisms-- like anticipating several hours in a row or way out of schedule just to get them done etc-- that put strains on men's souls. If you couple this with the above you have an intolerable burden.

Personally I think ideally priests should be faithful to their Office but not under some binding oath, and as much as I love the Latin I like how many modern breviaries whether online or,like the Monastic Diurnal in hardcopy, have both English and Latin. I don't want Latin to disappear and think the public Office should always be in that language, but unless priests are fluent in it let them pray using both, or using one or the other for private recitation.
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#17
(07-02-2015, 10:42 PM)Solatium Miserorum Wrote: How comes Lauds has Festal Psalms but the Little Hours were ferial?  Also, since Prime to None was ferial why wasn't Compline ferial (I am taking my info from DO and it seems like Sunday Compline was given for the Feast of the Visitation)?

Because that's how Pope John XXIII decided it should be. I suppose the reason was to further reduce the sameness and increase the use of all the Psalms by making the Little Hours ferial on II class feasts. Perhaps Compline was considered more important and therefore left unchanged.
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#18
(07-03-2015, 08:37 AM)Paul Wrote:
(07-02-2015, 10:42 PM)Solatium Miserorum Wrote: How comes Lauds has Festal Psalms but the Little Hours were ferial?  Also, since Prime to None was ferial why wasn't Compline ferial (I am taking my info from DO and it seems like Sunday Compline was given for the Feast of the Visitation)?

Because that's how Pope John XXIII decided it should be. I suppose the reason was to further reduce the sameness and increase the use of all the Psalms by making the Little Hours ferial on II class feasts. Perhaps Compline was considered more important and therefore left unchanged.

Compline was often said in the dark, meaning it was better to have it unchanging aside from the Marian Antiphon so that it was better memorized. Remember also that Compline is a prayer not just for the end of the day as night falls, but for the end of life. When one is old and infirm it makes sense to have this particular hour so familiar over a lifetime of use that it is easily recalled even from ones sickbed.

In all I think Compline is one of the most beautiful of the hours an am thankful that,in the Benedictine Aoffice at least, it is the same every night of the year.
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#19
(07-03-2015, 08:37 AM)Paul Wrote:
(07-02-2015, 10:42 PM)Solatium Miserorum Wrote: How comes Lauds has Festal Psalms but the Little Hours were ferial?  Also, since Prime to None was ferial why wasn't Compline ferial (I am taking my info from DO and it seems like Sunday Compline was given for the Feast of the Visitation)?

Because that's how Pope John XXIII decided it should be. I suppose the reason was to further reduce the sameness and increase the use of all the Psalms by making the Little Hours ferial on II class feasts. Perhaps Compline was considered more important and therefore left unchanged.

That makes sense but I still like the set up in Divino Afflatu.  It just seems much more logical to me when you look at the set up in the older Offices.

(07-03-2015, 09:17 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote:
(07-03-2015, 08:37 AM)Paul Wrote:
(07-02-2015, 10:42 PM)Solatium Miserorum Wrote: How comes Lauds has Festal Psalms but the Little Hours were ferial?  Also, since Prime to None was ferial why wasn't Compline ferial (I am taking my info from DO and it seems like Sunday Compline was given for the Feast of the Visitation)?

Because that's how Pope John XXIII decided it should be. I suppose the reason was to further reduce the sameness and increase the use of all the Psalms by making the Little Hours ferial on II class feasts. Perhaps Compline was considered more important and therefore left unchanged.

Compline was often said in the dark, meaning it was better to have it unchanging aside from the Marian Antiphon so that it was better memorized. Remember also that Compline is a prayer not just for the end of the day as night falls, but for the end of life. When one is old and infirm it makes sense to have this particular hour so familiar over a lifetime of use that it is easily recalled even from ones sickbed.

In all I think Compline is one of the most beautiful of the hours an am thankful that,in the Benedictine Aoffice at least, it is the same every night of the year.

The Monastic set up is brilliant.  I never even get tried of praying Psalms 119-127 from Terce to None for some reason.  I must confess I actually look forward to those hours.  They do not take very much time to pray and it is loaded with spiritual gems.

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#20
(07-02-2015, 10:42 PM)Solatium Miserorum Wrote: So, correct me if I am wrong, for First Class Feasts, the 1960 Roman Office has Psalm 118 from Prime to None.

However, what is the case for Second Class Feasts like Today?

How comes Lauds has Festal Psalms but the Little Hours were ferial?  Also, since Prime to None was ferial why wasn't Compline ferial (I am taking my info from DO and it seems like Sunday Compline was given for the Feast of the Visitation)?

This perplexes me.

(07-03-2015, 05:38 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: You're in good company,it perplexes me too. It's been troubling me a lot lately.

It's fascinating, because ferial psalmody for the Little Hours on Second Class feasts is exactly what happened with the 1970 Liturgy of the Hours.

Only "Solemnities" (i.e. First Class feasts) receive Proper psalmody, Sunday psalmody, and/or the Gradual psalms. "Feasts" (i.e. Second Class feasts) universally revert to the ferial/occurring "Daytime" psalmody.

It's funny to think that this rule was carried over to the LOTH as an assumed, normative practice when it was really only invented in 1960. The 1955 rubrics -- and all others, back to Trent & beyond -- called for Ps. 118 on II-Class feasts. It does seem like a whim of Pope St. John XXIII, all things considered. Typical of the late 50s & early 60s. Certainly, the consequences of Vatican II and the constitution of the LOTH didn't materialize out of thin air.

(07-03-2015, 05:52 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: After awhile of praying the Office a sense of dryness can creep in on certain days,or at certain hours, but this is just part of our interior life. The sameness,the routine, builds character and a foundation so that later,after decades of fidelity, the psalms and hymns and feasts of the Office and the liturgical year become a part of you.  In any endeavor we hit the doldrums but pushing through is key.

I love the Office, but I too hit dry patches. I never regret pushing through with an hour but I usually regret skipping one, especially if I actually have time and it's just laziness that's stopping me.

I must admit that, although the aesthetic part of me (i.e. the part that says "The Fruit was beautiful to the eyes and very pleasing to look upon") resists what you say, the more spiritual part accepts it wholeheartedly. I think you are right, for a very deep and important reason: repetition of the festal Psalmody can help us become aware of the many coloured meaning of the mysteries of our faith.

For example, on July 1, while praying the Festal Psalms at Lauds for the fourth time in as many days, I thought "here we go again". Suddenly, Psalm 92 came across in a totally different light:

Elevaverunt flumina, Domine:
elevaverunt flumina vocem suam.
Elevaverunt flumina fluctus suos,
a vocibus aquarum multarum.
Mirabiles elationes maris:
mirabilis in altis Dominus.

The floods lift up, O Lord,
the floods lift up their voice;
The floods lift up their tumult.
More powerful than the roar of many waters,
more powerful than the breakers of the sea,
powerful on high is the Lord.


In these words that have passed before my eyes hundreds of times without much benefit, there was an immediate effect: "seeing" the spiritual torrents of love, mercy, kindness, and goodness that stream throughout the world from the wounded side of Christ, derelict on the Cross. What are the "floods" but the tidal waves of grace contained in His most precious Blood? What is the "voice" of these floods but the blood which speaks more eloquently than the blood of Abel? Powerful on high is the Lord: lifted up on His Cross, strongly bathing sinful man and the fallen universe in His own life-blood.

The same thing can happen, for example, during the Christmas Octave when praying Psalm 118 at the Little Hours day, after day, after day. Perhaps the verse "A lamp to my feet is your word, a light to my path" can serve different purposes: on Dec. 25, seeing the infant smile of the Divine Word, incarnate as a baby, illuminating our darkened world; on Dec. 26, seeing the Divine Word's self-abasement in the Cradle as the exemplary "lighthouse" that inspired S. Stephen to die for love of Him; on Dec. 27, seeing the Divine Word's all-sufficient light of grace illuminating S. John's mind to pierce the mysteries of God; on Dec. 28, seeing the Divine Word as the light guiding the Holy Innocents along the night-path of death into the kingdom of blessedness; and so on.

In short, every feast day that calls for repetitions can lend a new reality to the repeated texts!

Quote:Part of why the Opus Dei became the Onus Dei for many priests pre Vatican II is twofold:
1. Let's face it, many priests did not adequately understand Latin, making the breviary just arcane gibberish to them.
2. Making one bound under pain of mortal sin to pray every hour every day without exception really is a burden leading to resentments, legalisms-- like anticipating several hours in a row or way out of schedule just to get them done etc-- that put strains on men's souls. If you couple this with the above you have an intolerable burden.

Personally I think ideally priests should be faithful to their Office but not under some binding oath, and as much as I love the Latin I like how many modern breviaries whether online or,like the Monastic Diurnal in hardcopy, have both English and Latin. I don't want Latin to disappear and think the public Office should always be in that language, but unless priests are fluent in it let them pray using both, or using one or the other for private recitation.

With regards to the lack of understanding of Latin in 1960, I've always thought that was dubious given how many young people still learned their Latin in the 1930s-1950s... but John XXIII must've had a good reason to release the constitution Veterum Sapientia on the desperate need for Latin studies.

I understand that none of the priests in the Orthodox/eastern rite churches are bound under pain of sin and hell to sing, say, recite, whisper, or read the Office. It is considered to be the primary duty of the monks. Secular clergy are bound to pray, certainly, but beyond that it becomes almost inhuman to expect a modern, novus ordo priest to do 7-8 longish Hours in Latin in our very fast, impatient modern world where they're scheduled so much and there's so few of them. We might as well just cast them all into hell ourselves.

It's interesting to note that one of Pope St. Pius X's rationales for changing the Psalter order is that there were fewer priests than in former times. Not sure if that's in Divino Afflatu or somewhere else, but I think it was him; thus, in this age of deficient seminary education, far fewer pursued vocations than 1911, and other factors, we can be merciful in assessing our clergy's use of the LOTH.

(07-03-2015, 12:22 PM)Solatium Miserorum Wrote: The Monastic set up is brilliant.  I never even get tried of praying Psalms 119-127 from Terce to None for some reason.  I must confess I actually look forward to those hours.  They do not take very much time to pray and it is loaded with spiritual gems.

Spiritual gems... now I have to look at the Graduals again, with a renewed eye! Smile
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