whatever happened to the not-so-toxic trads?
#41
I have to say,  I'm disturbed at how close I was veering into the "embittered trad" stereotypes when I was a new convert. I've looked over some of the posts I made here on my old account, and some of them were pretty angsty. -shakes head-  :( I chalk it up to a lack of maturity (I was 19/20) and not enough compassion and kindness to temper my zeal. Lord, have mercy.

And I think therein lies the problem with certain toxic trads, as well. The word "compassion" is really interesting when you break it down: "to suffer with." Some toxics need to realize that if they'd be willing to suffer with some people for a while, it would improve the holiness of both parties; one side would likely have their faith strengthened, and the other side would soften up a bit emotionally and be more willing to see the good, even when things look bleak. It's a whole lot better for one's spiritual life to point a finger at one's self from time to time and ask, "How can I improve?" instead of spiraling down into a dark hole of constant complaining.
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#42
(07-06-2015, 11:09 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: You know, if one goes by the criticism put forward here one should be on the side of the bishops who forbid the TLM, because apparently everyone who attends a TLM is a rude kook.

This is a bit unfair Regnatus. There's certainly a difference between 98% of all traditional Catholics who regularly attend mass, and the couple who are bitter about the pope and openly mouth off about him for instance. That's a problem.

I have a feeling that if older Catholics from before VII could actually read the way those Catholics talk about our Holy Father, they'd be shocked.

Quote:for every Louie Verrecchio one gets on the other side a bunch of Hans Küngs et al (the same sad encounters rich had I could also say I had with NO folks—maybe not in dinner parties, but still, veiled accusations of schism, snobbery, hypocrisy [because, you know, apparently we must be saints to participate in a TLM] were thrown my way).

However much I agree with the spirit of this, even if I don't think we can bisect traditional Catholics neatly from 'neo-con' Catholics, two wrongs simple don't make a right. Just because 'they' have Hans Küng, doesn't mean its okay for us to have Fr Cekada.

Quote:I get that we must make an examination of conscience, and I promise this will be my last post trying to defend traditional Catholics on this forum. So, you know, if its worthy anything there you go.

For better or worse, I large identify myself as a 'traditional' Catholic, one who prefers the 1968 Missal and Breviary over the Pauline Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours. Though I attend the latter, and will most likely pray the latter as well in chant and latin because it matches the calendar of the kind of mass I'm actively participating in most of the time.

And I get that its hard to come to one of the freezones for traditional Catholics and face a critical review, when you might have come from a parish with some misguided members accusing you unfairly of bitterness, schismatic tendencies, or just not plain getting with the times and outright disobedience.

Still integrity is important. These are real problems and we need to make our stand on some of these issues.
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#43

(07-07-2015, 12:18 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(07-06-2015, 11:43 PM)DeoDuce Wrote: I would just like to say that I don't have access to a Trad Mass 9 months out of the year because of school and yes to a degree it makes me angry but not toxic. I'm still trying to learn all of my faith since I'm a revert but it's not so much anger but sadness and fear. I honestly fear for my salvation because of lack of access to good priests and a good mass. I fear that I'm learning lies or heretical views when talking with certain priests. I'm more angry with the hedonistic college world I have to live in, but ultimately I'm scared for the salvation of my soul when it come to access to Catholicism.  I thank God for this forum. And just hope when I graduate in December I will find a good Traditional Catholic parish to attend, or at least a NO mass that has a good priest. 

:(  This makes me so sad to read... I'm so sorry you don't have access to the TLM, Deo (but don't worry:  righteous anger isn't the equivalent at ALL of "toxic tradness"!) 

If you have a few bucks to spare, please get this book:  This is the Faith, by Fr. Ripley. If money is an issue, PM me your address and I will find a way to get it to you. Just read that one book, imbibe it, and chillax, receiving the Sacraments where you can, even if the liturgy isn't up to par. If you read that one book and embrace its contents, you'll likely have little to worry about if you hear something that sounds "iffy" from a priest. But if you do anyway, just ask questions here; we're all here to help you.

I really want to give you a hug right now (sorry, I'm built thataway, being Eyetalian and all) and grab your hands, look you in the eye, and say to you:  DeoDuce, God isn't -- He is NOT -- out to "get" you. He more than understands your situation, the limitations put on you by your circumstances. He knows those things better than you yourself do. All you can do is your best, sweetheart. The Good God knows you don't have access to the TLM. He knows you're a revert trying to come to understand things. He's got His Eyes on you -- and, to anthropomorphize, it's not a look of disgust or disappointment He's giving you; it's undoubtedly one of great concern and, mostly, intense Love -- Love so pure and so true that you cannot IMAGINE.

At the risk of coming off as a spiritual adviser type -- which I have ZERO qualifications to do!!! -- my wish for you is to ponder the Divine Mercy. Check out this page -- http://www.fisheaters.com/divinemercy.html -- and listen to the chanted version of the Divine Mercy chaplet, meditate on it, and maybe have it running through your head throughout the day -- especially when you start to feel any sense of fear or sadness.  My sense is that you need to come to have a TRUST in Jesus -- a TRUST that He is with you, "on your side," THERE for you, NOT out to "get" you... Trust that He is most merciful and Love itself!

If my feeling is right, I'm sensing, maybe, a bit of the ole scruples. If that's the case, this page, too, might help you:  http://www.fisheaters.com/scruples.html

In any case, just remember that God doesn't expect more of us than we can possibly do. If you have no TLM, yes, you are missing out, but in God's judgment of you, He takes all that (and everything else about your life) into consideration. IOW, you have nothing to "fear" because you don't have access to the TLM. Being sad about it -- well, any trad would be! -- but fear? No! A thousand times no! During various periods of persecution in the Church's History, Catholics have had to do without priests at all. In the Church's mercy vis-a-vis Her sacramental system, if no priest is available so things can't be done according to the ideal, the way of perfection, God always gives us another way. For ex., if there is no priest and, therefore, no Mass, a "spiritual Communion" can be made: http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMmissingmass.html

If a priest isn't around so you can go to Confession, a perfect act of contrition can be made. See the sub-section "One other way the grace of the Sacrament of Penance may be received" on this page: http://www.fisheaters.com/penance.html

Any Catholic may baptize someone in an emergency. See this page about that. See the "Private Baptism" sub-section on this page:  http://www.fisheaters.com/baptism2.html

The point:  God gave us His Church and His priests as the normative means of going about our lives and receiving the Sacraments. But, as I'm wont to say, "God's not an idiot." He knows that "life happens." And His Church makes provisions for things like that!

So, to sum up:  please get your hands on that book I mentioned, focus on the Divine Mercy, read about scruples if that pertains to you, and R-E-L-A-X and TRUST in Jesus! Bide your time until you can finally get to a trad parish -- but know that, in the meanwhile, God's got His Eyes on you and just "has" to be pleased and HAPPY that Mr. DeoDuce is down there on earth, so wanting to please Him. S'all good! I promise!

Thank you Vox you truly are a blessing. I will defiantly check out that book. And yes I have a small case of the scruples but I'm working on it. Once again thank you for the kind words and encouragement


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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#44
(07-07-2015, 06:07 AM)DeoDuce Wrote: And yes I have a small case of the scruples but I'm working on it.

My good spiritual confessor told me that a little bit of scruples is a good thing, that's just the results of really caring about the law of God. If it becomes debilitating to your health, then its a problem.

Just so you won't get scruples about having some scruples.  :LOL:
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#45
(07-07-2015, 05:03 AM)Share Love Wrote: The word "compassion" is really interesting when you break it down: "to suffer with." Some toxics need to realize that if they'd be willing to suffer with some people for a while, it would improve the holiness of both parties; one side would likely have their faith strengthened, and the other side would soften up a bit emotionally and be more willing to see the good, even when things look bleak. It's a whole lot better for one's spiritual life to point a finger at one's self from time to time and ask, "How can I improve?" instead of spiraling down into a dark hole of constant complaining.

Yes, yes, yes.  :star:
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#46
I think traditional Catholics need to be acutely aware of the stereotype in order to avoid it. I have never met anyone I would describe as a "toxic trad" in real life. However, in real life you see a lot more of a person. The elderly woman who rails againt the pope and Vatican II with tears in her eyes is clearly experiencing pain, and it's hard to writ her off as "toxic," though some of her views may be. Find her posts on a Catholic forum, and they will be harsh and uncharitable, and with no context you will judge her to be harsh, uncharitable person. The internet distills people into their opinions on one topic, thus making them smaller. And once smaller, it takes less toxin to make them toxic.

In real life, however, I have seen others turned away from traditional Catholicisn by what they perceived as toxic trads. Remember that the average "conservative" Catholic doesn't know many trads in real life, and perhaps doesn't even know them online. He is quite likely to have heard negative stereotypes about us. When he goes to his first TLM and someone says "isn't this mass beautiful?" he feels that it's an insult to the mass he knows and grew up with. When the other women wear veils, and the first time visitor doesn't have one, she feels as though the "mean trads" are judging her. When the new family shows up for the first time, and their children start making a fuss in the pews and someone turns their head distracted by the noise, they feel their children have been insulted for not being "perfect."

I'm not saying this is right. But if Tradition is important it had to be attractive. And it is: newcomers come to the TLM. But we need to be aware that newcomers are fully aware of the negative stereotypes about us, and may take even the most innocuous behavior as "toxic."
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#47
(07-07-2015, 02:15 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: I think traditional Catholics need to be acutely aware of the stereotype in order to avoid it. I have never met anyone I would describe as a "toxic trad" in real life. However, in real life you see a lot more of a person. The elderly woman who rails againt the pope and Vatican II with tears in her eyes is clearly experiencing pain, and it's hard to writ her off as "toxic," though some of her views may be. Find her posts on a Catholic forum, and they will be harsh and uncharitable, and with no context you will judge her to be harsh, uncharitable person. The internet distills people into their opinions on one topic, thus making them smaller. And once smaller, it takes less toxin to make them toxic.

This! Yes! I, too, haven't met that many "toxic trads" IRL -- but I also know that they abound on the internet. Or they at least appear to. What you wrote about how the internet "distills people into their opinions" is so very true. I've often had the wish that some of the people who loathe me and bash FE could meet with me IRL, over a bottle of Gewurtzraminner (sp) or whatever and spicy snacks and just t-a-l-k. I'd bet that our opinions of each other would soften to a great degree.

But on the net -- words are all we have, and without the body language ("with tears in her eyes"), it's easy to not get the full sense of what the "other" is about. This is one reason why I'm such a stickler when it comes to the language used in posts. If we are going to be effective in evangelizing, especially on the net where words are all there is, then we HAVE to come to terms with the idea that the way we choose to express ourselves is all the seekers have to go by when they're trying to figure out "what trads are like."

Quote:
In real life, however, I have seen others turned away from traditional Catholicisn by what they perceived as toxic trads. Remember that the average "conservative" Catholic doesn't know many trads in real life, and perhaps doesn't even know them online. He is quite likely to have heard negative stereotypes about us. When he goes to his first TLM and someone says "isn't this mass beautiful?" he feels that it's an insult to the mass he knows and grew up with. When the other women wear veils, and the first time visitor doesn't have one, she feels as though the "mean trads" are judging her. When the new family shows up for the first time, and their children start making a fuss in the pews and someone turns their head distracted by the noise, they feel their children have been insulted for not being "perfect."

I'm not saying this is right. But if Tradition is important it had to be attractive. And it is: newcomers come to the TLM. But we need to be aware that newcomers are fully aware of the negative stereotypes about us, and may take even the most innocuous behavior as "toxic."

Absolutely! On the TLM "Attire and Ettiqette" page I try to 'nip in the bud' some of the potential problems I see as things that'd turn a newbie away -- everything from the headcovering stuff to dealing with the fact that non-Catholics can't receive Communion to plain-old judgmental attitudes toward attire, etc.:  http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMetiquette.html  Because of the negative stereotypes that about -- stereotypes that do NOT reflect the reality of MOST trads, but which exist because the toxic types are so LOUD -- we have to have an understanding of what's going on out there with re. to the "toxics" and go above and  beyond the call of duty to counteract them.
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#48
I just have to say, I'm really loving this thread. It's an honest and frank discussion that I am very much taking to heart. I needed to hear some of these things.

Thank-you.
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#49
A brief perusal of some other "trad Catholic" forums seems to indicate that FE has a pretty poor reputation among the serious/real/authentic/true/remnant/actually orthodox trads. The tribal mentality is, not shocking, but pretty saddening to see, as well as the mutual encouraging of making gross generalities, judgments on intention and states of soul, and the straight up, unabashed detraction. Some exhibit attitudes of "competition" among trad forums, as though there is some kind of competition? I'm just saddened to see so much apparent eagerness to bash brothers and sisters in Christ because of differences of belief.

I also have further confirmation that people are grossly ignorant of the theology of the apostolate and need to have an authoritative guide to see how those principles apply to the 21st century setting, especially digital technology and virtual reality (social media, culture industry, and news primarily). We really need to spell things out concretely, even to explaining something as simple as why it's a wrong and harmful act to bash others. It's sad that something so simple would need to be explained, but tribe mentality does that.

Well, anyway, if that's the general spoken attitude found on some other trad forums that I stumbled across by simple Google search, I'm quite happy to be here. Just seems much healthier.
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#50
(07-08-2015, 05:14 AM)richgr Wrote: A brief perusal of some other "trad Catholic" forums seems to indicate that FE has a pretty poor reputation among the serious/real/authentic/true/remnant/actually orthodox trads. The tribal mentality is, not shocking, but pretty saddening to see, as well as the mutual encouraging of making gross generalities, judgments on intention and states of soul, and the straight up, unabashed detraction. Some exhibit attitudes of "competition" among trad forums, as though there is some kind of competition? I'm just saddened to see so much apparent eagerness to bash brothers and sisters in Christ because of differences of belief.

I also have further confirmation that people are grossly ignorant of the theology of the apostolate and need to have an authoritative guide to see how those principles apply to the 21st century setting, especially digital technology and virtual reality (social media, culture industry, and news primarily). We really need to spell things out concretely, even to explaining something as simple as why it's a wrong and harmful act to bash others. It's sad that something so simple would need to be explained, but tribe mentality does that.

Well, anyway, if that's the general spoken attitude found on some other trad forums that I stumbled across by simple Google search, I'm quite happy to be here. Just seems much healthier.

Unreal, isn't it? I've heard some super-crazy things said about me. It is kind of hard to believe, really. It's either that people truly are not that bright and cannot parse what is in front of them, or they are just hateful. Or both. Makes no sense. (this is where a toxic type would say, "See? Disagree with Vox and she thinks you're just stupid!", as if they have no understanding of the difference between disagreeing with someone, and mischaracterizing what someone says to the point that you're saying the exact opposite of what was actually said)

But anyway, what you wrote is the reason why I repeat myself constantly. I hate to have to do that, but I know how the toxics are, and I know how people misread things constantly.
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