The Lord’s Prayer During Mass: Should We Hold Hands? Or Raise Them in the Air?
#11
(07-07-2015, 04:21 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: Good stuff this video.

I watch it periodically. Very calming and helpful advice.

Quote:But if you serve at the altar you must genuflect before the altar when you pass it, otherwise you are not properly teaching the people at the nave that Christ is really there (or is represented by the altar, if it doesn't have the Eucharist above it).

It's good that you mention this, because it gets down to the very topic at issue: the role of the priest and the role of the laity. I used to be very scrupulous about this subject, the same as the issue of keeping my hands fixed properly in the upright "prayer" posture.

It was drilled into me that the server disappears and isn't supposed to do anything auspicious or draw attention to himself in any way.  I've been reminded over and over that I am not supposed to do anything but bring the vessels/books to the clergy/altar, because anything else distracts from the Priest-as-Christ.

This disallowing of "drawing attention to oneself" precludes all genuflections and bows -- except after having washed the priest's hands, and periodically, before/after incensing the congregation at the Offertory. Ironically, in this rush to "minimize the servers", the rubrics of the OF Mass are violated: the corporal, empty chalices, et. al., are supposed to be set up by an acolyte, but because my priest wants servers to be invisible, he always sets up the altar and I just bring the vessels & books to him. Technically, this is an abuse.

Anyway, every time I bow or genuflect to some "object" other than the priest, I hear no end of it after Mass in the sacristy from the very novus-ordo deacon (who is firmly against ringing the sanctus bell three times because it's "distracting"). Ironically, that same deacon sometimes does an orans with the priest at the Lord's Prayer.  :LOL:

I'd gladly stop serving because of this obsession with having an Invisible Altar Server, to the point of slight irreverence ... but unfortunately, our parish has no servers for the Masses where I am currently acting as acolyte... and it just seems silly to have no servers at all...

Thankfully I usually do not have any cause to pass before the altar or tabernacle in the course of a normal Mass. Every time I do pass Him without genuflecting, though, a little sword pierces my heart. This isn't just a matter of human respect, but of trying to do my best. Perhaps we can look at the Orans in that way too?
Reply
#12
Oh I see, so its a thing with your priest and deacon.

Coming from EF perspective this seems silly. The acolytes do a bunch of stuff: kissing the hands of the priest and the biretta hundreds of times, going this way or that way with some thing or other (always genuflecting at the altar), incensing the choir and ourselves. But in the end I don't even remember who the acolytes were.

Also, there seems to be something a bit perverse about all attention to the priest to the point of him being the center of the Mass (I wonder what this priest does in a Solemn Mass, when the priest is silent throughout the Mass), almost like a turning into Liturgical norm the accident of our turning the attention to Fr. instead of God when we turned to the people.

Reply
#13
(07-07-2015, 03:00 PM)Heorot Wrote: As for the second thing: it's rather funny than the ancient prayer posture of the "Orans" has become only priestly. In my opinion, every Christian ought, at all prayer times, to pray with hands raised in front of them, palms up, like the priest or like a desert father. That is a sign of the Body of Christ: standing and interceding for the whole world before God. Isn't it funny how I'm being conservative and liberal at the same time?

The Orans position is fine for the laity - during private prayer. But the Mass is a public liturgical function, so rubrics, including those for the laity, are important. They help the people get the sense that we're gathered as one. Plus, having such rubrics laid out eliminates confusion during Mass. A kid growing up seeing consistent responses and gestures, etc., will know exactly what to do and not do to in order to fit in and feel at home. In addition, there is a distinction between the priest and the laity, and having certain gestures reserved for him makes sense.

But I do like the Orans position for the laity as well -- in private, though.

Quote:I'm confused. Responding, singing, and "positioning" are not gestures. This obsession with "who does what", and disallowing those who "aren't supposed to do X" from doing X... it all smacks of a bit of pettiness. What, laity can't raise their hands to pray, like all the psalms say? Lifting up of the hands to God? Only the priest can do that in Mass? Who cares about that bubblesoap?

The laity can raise their hands to pray like the psalmists say -- at home. And yes, only the priest can do that at Mass. We have to care about such things in order to be able to have a consistent means of worship that can truly be universal. While some guy in the pews praying in the orans position isn't the most important thing to concern ourselves with, I do think it's a concern.
Reply
#14
(07-07-2015, 05:54 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: Oh I see, so its a thing with your priest and deacon.

Coming from EF perspective this seems silly. The acolytes do a bunch of stuff: kissing the hands of the priest and the biretta hundreds of times, going this way or that way with some thing or other (always genuflecting at the altar), incensing the choir and ourselves. But in the end I don't even remember who the acolytes were.

This is the point I desire to make, since I am close friends with all the novus ordo clergy in this parish. I know they won't listen to me in the end, practically, but I do want to understand their reasoning. It seems totally against the ancient rites; where, indeed, acolytes are up, down, and around kissing hands and doing many things besides. It probably just comes from the new mindset of the spirit of Vatican II.

Quote:Also, there seems to be something a bit perverse about all attention to the priest to the point of him being the center of the Mass (I wonder what this priest does in a Solemn Mass, when the priest is silent throughout the Mass), almost like a turning into Liturgical norm the accident of our turning the attention to Fr. instead of God when we turned to the people.

This is part of the strange Novus Ordo of Mass-mindset. It seems to me that in the TLM, the priest is really quite subdued in terms of our focus. Depending on where and when we are in the liturgy, different ministers are seen in different capacities and have different degrees of "publicity". In the Novus Ordo, the priest sits imperiously on his chair (very often elevated behind the freestanding altar, in the place of the old high altar), smiling and presiding over the assembly. I get a very Chesire-Cat-like feeling from it sometimes.

(07-07-2015, 06:08 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: The Orans position is fine for the laity - during private prayer. But the Mass is a public liturgical function, so rubrics, including those for the laity, are important. They help the people get the sense that we're gathered as one. Plus, having such rubrics laid out eliminates confusion during Mass. A kid growing up seeing consistent responses and gestures, etc., will know exactly what to do and not do to in order to fit in and feel at home. In addition, there is a distinction between the priest and the laity, and having certain gestures reserved for him makes sense.

How about everyone uniformly prays orans?  :grin:

Sorry, I have a bit of a thing about this... I do love a proper orans, and seeing the whole church filled with hearts and hands lifted to God in the ancient eastern rites is so very beautiful.

Quote:But I do like the Orans position for the laity as well -- in private, though.

The laity can raise their hands to pray like the psalmists say -- at home. And yes, only the priest can do that at Mass. We have to care about such things in order to be able to have a consistent means of worship that can truly be universal. While some guy in the pews praying in the orans position isn't the most important thing to concern ourselves with, I do think it's a concern.

Why, exactly? Is there a real theological/spiritual reason, or is it "just" tradition? I accept the latter wholeheartedly, by the way, but if it is the former I'd like to see it expounded fully. Of course, it was certainly the very ancient tradition, by our Lord's time, for all praying persons in the Temple to lift up their hands to God. It continued this way for many centuries. Who knows when our current "subdued laity" posture came in, entirely?
Reply
#15
Sometimes I picture myself in your situation (because who knows if in the future I find myself in a city with no TLM). And I often fantasize about convincing a priest to say the TLM privately. Have you ever brought that possibility to the clergy you are close to? Now with Summorum Pontificum priests can do that.

About only priests doing Orans, Dom Gueranger explains this is because this position, among other things, represents the arms of Christ stretched on the Cross and as the priest is the one acting in the Person of Christ is only proper that he alone does that.
Of course, this is only a rule to preserve a symbolism, not anything doctrinal.

Reply
#16
It is a concern, but it's pretty trivial compared to all the other major concerns within the Pauline Rite of Mass as it's officially offered. My main concerns are:

1. Too many options
2. The Propers simply are not used, almost ever.
3. There should be one Canon without options to omit things like names of saints etc.
4. Altar girls. I know they are allowed, but it's a glaring novelty unprecedented in history
5. EHMC's. They are allowed, but it's abusive to have them at every Mass, not to mention distracting when they all shuffle up to the sanctuary and recieve Communion with Father and before the rest of the laity in the pews. It almost gives the impression they are special. At the local hospital chapel there are maybe 10 people at Mass and Father has laity act as lectors and at least two EHMCS. It's ridiculous.
6. The Novus Ordo Sign of Peace, a messy affair that is disrespectful after the Consecration
7. No thanksgiving after Communion, raucous applause after the recessional, too much talking.
8. Completely trite cheesy music and trite cheesy mushy sermons.

Laity using the Orans seem to me trivial compared to the aforementioned problems within the average Pauline Rite Mass.
Reply
#17
(07-07-2015, 06:18 PM)Heorot Wrote:
Vox Wrote:The laity can raise their hands to pray like the psalmists say -- at home. And yes, only the priest can do that at Mass. We have to care about such things in order to be able to have a consistent means of worship that can truly be universal. While some guy in the pews praying in the orans position isn't the most important thing to concern ourselves with, I do think it's a concern.

Why, exactly? Is there a real theological/spiritual reason, or is it "just" tradition? I accept the latter wholeheartedly, by the way, but if it is the former I'd like to see it expounded fully. Of course, it was certainly the very ancient tradition, by our Lord's time, for all praying persons in the Temple to lift up their hands to God. It continued this way for many centuries. Who knows when our current "subdued laity" posture came in, entirely?

Tradition (per the Roman Rite) would be my number 1 answer, but the deal, too, is that there is a difference between the priest's work and the laity's work. The priest offers the Sacrifice on our behalf, he is ordained, he is there to guard, teach, and guide, etc. There's been such a blurring of the lines between priests and the laity that, IMO, any little thing that can go to restoring those distinctions is a good thing.

But again, I do love the Orans position for private prayer. It's such a beautiful, natural gesture, like that of a little kid reaching up for his Daddy, ya know? It's also the 7th "way of prayer" of St. Dominic:  http://www.fisheaters.com/stdominic9ways.html
 
Reply
#18
Should We Hold Hands? Or Raise Them in the Air?

Why not fold them in prayer?
Reply
#19
(07-07-2015, 11:03 PM)Poche Wrote: Should We Hold Hands? Or Raise Them in the Air?

Why not fold them in prayer?

This is what I do, personally.
Reply
#20
[Image: nxaa6.jpg]
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)