Need some help here...please.
#11
(07-20-2015, 06:06 PM)Farmer88 Wrote:
(07-20-2015, 03:31 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-19-2015, 11:08 PM)Farmer88 Wrote: I may have gotten over it for now, but I should probably mostly ignore it. Otherwise I'll get pulled back in. I've gone back and forth a few times over the past few years. And this flip flopping is not helping my spiritual growth and journey.

Is Eastern Catholicism not a viable option for you?

For now, I think it's very likely I'll get dragged back towards Orthodoxy. At least for now.


There's wisdom in knowing what is good for you and what isn't. One of the most profound things to reflect on is the old saying lex Orandi, lex Credendi, I really believe that if you pray a certain way it forms you in a certain way. Father Gabriel Bunge in his excellent book on prayer Earthen Vessels made this point in a way that was criticizing the ecumenism and syncretism of much of post conciliar praxis. If you sit meditation like a Hindu or a Buddhist, you'll inevitably be drawn to start exploring one of these religions almost in spite of yourself.

I can say that having gone through plenty of totally Eastern phases I'm comfortable being mostly Western in praxis with a love for Eastern theology,icons and the Jesus Prayer over the rosary but there is always a danger. If I start using my old Jordanville instead of my western breviary, making prostrations etc I know that I'll feel the pull back towards Orthodoxy. How you pray is how you believe. There is something profound there.


No doubt there are Eastern Rites, but my suggestion is to go either one way or another if you don't want to live with that tension. If you want to be at peace and not feel pulled to Orthodoxy at all,stick entirely within a western framework. I don't see any way of resolving the tension if you are caught between both. I live with the tension, but it's a choice I've made.
Reply
#12
Makes sense. I know exactly what you mean too. Having attended the local diocesan TLM the past two weeks, it's really helped establish me back in the Latin Rite. I try to not appeal to since emotions emotions can lie and even for being Latin, I'm very fond of apophatic theology (which is pretty popular in the medieval West as well), but it is very comforting.
Reply
#13
I think that apophatic theology is useful in being able to reasonably eliminate some impossibilities about what God is but it won't tell you much else. It's hardly very useful to establish that God is not a watermelon.

As far as my knowledge and recall goes when God is telling us something about Himself He always speaks in the positive... as in He said; "I Am Who Am" not "I am not who isn't".
Reply
#14
As to the Beatific Vision, I don't know anything. I only hope to experience it one day.

Reply
#15
I suggest reading the Summa theologiae regularly. That's about as Latin in spirituality as it gets.
Reply
#16
(07-22-2015, 06:40 PM)Papist Wrote: I suggest reading the Summa theologiae regularly. That's about as Latin in spirituality as it gets.

This could make for an interesting encounter. Many people, including Easterners, are surprised by how Eastern sounding St Thomas can be. The number of times he quotes St John Damascene and Pseudo-Dionysius is quite striking.
Reply
#17
(07-22-2015, 06:40 PM)Papist Wrote: I suggest reading the Summa theologiae regularly. That's about as Latin in spirituality as it gets.
If you're going for Latin spirituality I would suggest one or both of the Thereses, John of the Cross, Thomas a Kempis etc.

Reading the Summa for one of us contemporary commoners is a considerable trial of one's patience and cognitive abilities as it involves the very formal logic of the Scholastic Method, it was thought up and written in Latin and the translations available were not intended for the common man's perceptions and idiom.

Give it a go, by all means. If you become familiar with the terminology and concepts it is wonderfully stimulating stuff.
Reply
#18
If you're eastern at heart but want to be western I suggest, not Aquinas, but St Bernard of Clairvaux, especially his sermons on the Song of Songs or the liturgical year. There are some really nice translations out there these days. There's a reason St. Bernard is called " the last of the Fathers." He writes with the same mystical fervor and passion of some of the Fathers, but in a Western context. If you can find it, read his sermon on the name of Jesus, it's stunningly beautiful and perfect before praying the Jesus Prayer.

I'd also wholeheartedly suggest checking out Dom Kirbys blog Vultus Christ for some other Western stuff that is quite different than most of the stuff you find in the trad world. Remember, you don't have to get or enjoy the scholastics or even counter reformation stuff to be Western. Don't forget the Western patrimony goes back a long way, and men like Sts. Bede, Cuthbert, Guthlac,David of Wales, Bernard and the early Cistercians are just as valid for ones spiritual life as a Westerner as Aquinas, Bonaventure or Bellarmine.
Reply
#19
(07-23-2015, 05:43 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: If you're eastern at heart but want to be western I suggest, not Aquinas, but St Bernard of Clairvaux, especially his sermons on the Song of Songs or the liturgical year. There are some really nice translations out there these days. There's a reason St. Bernard is called " the last of the Fathers." He writes with the same mystical fervor and passion of some of the Fathers, but in a Western context. If you can find it, read his sermon on the name of Jesus, it's stunningly beautiful and perfect before praying the Jesus Prayer.

I'd also wholeheartedly suggest checking out Dom Kirbys blog Vultus Christ for some other Western stuff that is quite different than most of the stuff you find in the trad world. Remember, you don't have to get or enjoy the scholastics or even counter reformation stuff to be Western. Don't forget the Western patrimony goes back a long way, and men like Sts. Bede, Cuthbert, Guthlac,David of Wales, Bernard and the early Cistercians are just as valid for ones spiritual life as a Westerner as Aquinas, Bonaventure or Bellarmine.

That's the thing. I don't think I am Eastern at heart. I think I'm Western at heart, only that I do have a bit of a fondness for the East. I do know about Vultus Christi though, just found out about it not even a week ago. And yeah, I know about the ancient history of the Western patrimony. I think that was a big reason why I was drawn towards Western Rite Orthodoxy, because it uses some of the oldest stuff. But something about it still seemed off.
Reply
#20
(07-24-2015, 10:58 AM)Farmer88 Wrote:
(07-23-2015, 05:43 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: If you're eastern at heart but want to be western I suggest, not Aquinas, but St Bernard of Clairvaux, especially his sermons on the Song of Songs or the liturgical year. There are some really nice translations out there these days. There's a reason St. Bernard is called " the last of the Fathers." He writes with the same mystical fervor and passion of some of the Fathers, but in a Western context. If you can find it, read his sermon on the name of Jesus, it's stunningly beautiful and perfect before praying the Jesus Prayer.

I'd also wholeheartedly suggest checking out Dom Kirbys blog Vultus Christ for some other Western stuff that is quite different than most of the stuff you find in the trad world. Remember, you don't have to get or enjoy the scholastics or even counter reformation stuff to be Western. Don't forget the Western patrimony goes back a long way, and men like Sts. Bede, Cuthbert, Guthlac,David of Wales, Bernard and the early Cistercians are just as valid for ones spiritual life as a Westerner as Aquinas, Bonaventure or Bellarmine.

That's the thing. I don't think I am Eastern at heart. I think I'm Western at heart, only that I do have a bit of a fondness for the East. I do know about Vultus Christi though, just found out about it not even a week ago. And yeah, I know about the ancient history of the Western patrimony. I think that was a big reason why I was drawn towards Western Rite Orthodoxy, because it uses some of the oldest stuff. But something about it still seemed off.

That's good that you've explored various options and are beginning to see where your heart really lies. Sometimes we have to set off like the prodigal son and give it a go elsewhere before coming back to realize that what we had was right and good all along. It's kind of sappy but when I first went back to the TLM after almost a year of shifting between being a home aloner or an Orthodox Christian even something as simple as hearing the filioque in the Creed brought tears to my eyes. There was a sense of home coming, of feeling like, while the East has much to be commended, my home was the West all along.

I have not given up my preference for icons over statues, for the Jesus prayer over the rosary and for St Dionysius or Dumitru Staniloae over Aquinas or Robert Bellarmine, but I am at home right here in the West.

That sense of something being " off" about Western Orthodoxy was probably because it is something basically fabricated and pieced together by high church Anglicans who wanted something of the Western patrimony without anything of the Tridentine Reform or the papacy. I can't say it's been a totally failed project but it's not organic. There's still an interest in Sarum amongst some ACC members, mostly in England, and if I recall correctly there's a decent WRO church in Denver. Still, this stuff is more the noble fantasy of academics and dreamers than anything else. It's kind of cool for an intellectual hobby but not sure if anything more will come of it.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)