The Fall of the Angels
#1
So from what Iv heard Satan fell because he was shown by God that God would become man and the the Mother of God, Mary would surpass even Lucifer in grace and status. My question is, if God became man to redeem us, and we fell because of the temptation by Satan, and Satan fell because of Pride, that Mary would surpass him and God would become man... Do you see where I'm going with this? It seems circular to me. Can anyone help explain this to me so my flawed human brain can attempt to grasp it?


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#2
The fall of the Angels is part of revelation, but the exact details of the fall, namely, what was the test that some Angels failed, is a matter of speculation.

We have very few Scriptural references, and none very explicit. Job 4.18, Is 14.12, Lk 10.18, 2 Pt 2.4 and 2 Jn 3.8, Ap 12.7ff. are about as detailed as it gets.

Since revelation is so sparse, there is very little that a Catholic is bound to believe in this regard. Only that God firstly created the angels which are incorporeal spiritual beings and gave to them a test, which test many failed and as a consequence were cast out down to Hell for eternity, and which test some passed were given the Beatific Vision as a reward. Because of the nature of an angel, that choice cannot be changed, so each is confirmed in grace or damnation.

The Church teaches that the sin was one of Pride, since it must have been a sin that did not require any body, and since Scripture seems to suggest this -- given Is 14 and the narrative of the fall of Adam, by which the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to a sin of pride.

But what could have motivated such a sin in Lucifer and the other angels, since by their very nature, they would have clearly known they were unable to become God, and their rebellion was futile. This makes theologians speculate that it was possibly that Lucifer and the other fallen angels were shown in some way that God would create man, who would fall, and then would become Incarnate to redeem man, thus the angels would be subject to God as Man. This perhaps also included some revelation about Our Lady.

Unwilling to serve a man, who by nature is less than an angel, the angels pridefully rebelled, which pride blinded them to the futility of their rebellion.

Unfortunately, because it's a matter of speculation and we also have "the mystery of iniquity" we are never going to be able to grasp it all, but we should be able to make some sense of it.

If you're speculating that, had Satan not fallen, then there would have been no test for Adam, thus no fall, thus no Incarnation, thus God would have lied in such a test, back up. Remember that this was all speculation anyway, since we have no revelation about the test.

Still, God knew from all eternity exactly what the test would be, the results of the test (the fall), and that as a result He would allow Satan to tempt Adam who would fall, and then He would redeem man by the Incarnation and death of Christ.
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#3

(07-29-2015, 04:18 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: The fall of the Angels is part of revelation, but the exact details of the fall, namely, what was the test that some Angels failed, is a matter of speculation.

We have very few Scriptural references, and none very explicit. Job 4.18, Is 14.12, Lk 10.18, 2 Pt 2.4 and 2 Jn 3.8, Ap 12.7ff. are about as detailed as it gets.

Since revelation is so sparse, there is very little that a Catholic is bound to believe in this regard. Only that God firstly created the angels which are incorporeal spiritual beings and gave to them a test, which test many failed and as a consequence were cast out down to Hell for eternity, and which test some passed were given the Beatific Vision as a reward. Because of the nature of an angel, that choice cannot be changed, so each is confirmed in grace or damnation.

The Church teaches that the sin was one of Pride, since it must have been a sin that did not require any body, and since Scripture seems to suggest this -- given Is 14 and the narrative of the fall of Adam, by which the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to a sin of pride.

But what could have motivated such a sin in Lucifer and the other angels, since by their very nature, they would have clearly known they were unable to become God, and their rebellion was futile. This makes theologians speculate that it was possibly that Lucifer and the other fallen angels were shown in some way that God would create man, who would fall, and then would become Incarnate to redeem man, thus the angels would be subject to God as Man. This perhaps also included some revelation about Our Lady.

Unwilling to serve a man, who by nature is less than an angel, the angels pridefully rebelled, which pride blinded them to the futility of their rebellion.

Unfortunately, because it's a matter of speculation and we also have "the mystery of iniquity" we are never going to be able to grasp it all, but we should be able to make some sense of it.

If you're speculating that, had Satan not fallen, then there would have been no test for Adam, thus no fall, thus no Incarnation, thus God would have lied in such a test, back up. Remember that this was all speculation anyway, since we have no revelation about the test.

Still, God knew from all eternity exactly what the test would be, the results of the test (the fall), and that as a result He would allow Satan to tempt Adam who would fall, and then He would redeem man by the Incarnation and death of Christ.

Ah I see. That makes sense. Thanks for the help!


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#4
Quote:Only that God firstly created the angels which are incorporeal spiritual beings and gave to them a test, which test many failed and as a consequence were cast out down to Hell for eternity, and which test some passed were given the Beatific Vision as a reward
Are we really bound to believe in this test and the fact that only those who passed were given the Beatific Vision? Have you got a citation?
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#5
(07-29-2015, 04:27 PM)PolishTrad Wrote:
Quote:Only that God firstly created the angels which are incorporeal spiritual beings and gave to them a test, which test many failed and as a consequence were cast out down to Hell for eternity, and which test some passed were given the Beatific Vision as a reward
Are we really bound to believe in this test and the fact that only those who passed were given the Beatific Vision? Have you got a citation?

I don't have many of my books with me right now, but I do have a PDF of the Pohle-Pressus Dogmatic Theology series. In God: The Author of Nature and the Supernatural, on the section on the Angels, they write:

Quote:It is the teaching of the Fathers, unanimously defended by Catholic theologians, that like men, the Angels had to undergo a probation, during which they found themselves in the status viæ and had to merit the beatific vision of the Blessed Trinity. The fact that they were able to merit the beatific vision presupposed that while in the wayfaring state they received an external revelation of the truths necessary for salvation, and, like man, were bound to prepare themselves by a free act of internal faith for the attainment of eternal happiness ... How long the period of probation lasted, whether but a single instant or two morulæ or three is a matter of pure conjecture. The only thing that we must hold as an article of faith is that a portion of the Angels came forth unsullied, with the remainder fell and we cast into hell.
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#6
Okay, thanks.
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