'Shadow council' speaker pushes Church acceptance of contraception, gay sex
#11
I am really beginning to worry about my Faith.


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#12
(08-10-2015, 11:30 PM)PrairieMom Wrote:
(08-10-2015, 02:12 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(08-10-2015, 01:29 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: I guess when push comes to shove maybe I'm not all that invested in the hierarchy which is why I'm not losing sleep. Life goes on,especially my spiritual life. The hierarchy haven't given much indication over the last 60 plus years that they can be trusted to be clear rather than vague but in the end my personal spiritual life doesn't suffer much. We still have each other through the forum, our Lady, the saints, the Angels, our breviaries, prayer ropes and rosaries and valid Masses close enough to be nourished spiritually.

Just think,during various persecutions or crises like the great western schism or the Protestant purges of Catholics in England all that might hold people together was their close knit communities and piety. In England all but one or two bishops fell away. The simple faithful will survive no matter what.

We are in the wilderness now but we still have our Faith. No Pope, bishop or priest can take our Faith away from us. Eventually if you get burned enough dealing with people you just have very few expectations and find inner strength to keep going even if it must be alone.  We have no control over the hierarchy and what they do or say, we only have control over ourselves.

I think our attitudes toward these things are very similar. I get intellectually ticked and annoyed about the goings-on, but I don't emotionally invest in it all. It is what it is, and whatever it is, it doesn't change a thing in terms of what I need to be doing. So, whatevah. One does what one can, one teaches, one loves, one prays, then one lets go of it all, kicks back, and eats cannoli.

I envy your strength of faith, both of you! (oops, do I need to confess that?) I don't think it's that I have this great emotional investment in the hierarchy, but I guess I have difficulty separating the hierarchy from the faith. If they're not true to the faith, what chance does a poor shmuck like me have?

If you look at the history of the Church more often than not it has been members of the hierarchy that have sold out and compromised. Of course there are ages where things appear rosier than they are now, but standing where we are now,looking back with a sort of romantic longing, it's hard to say for sure whether they really were.

Your faith is your faith; the hierarchy can scandalize it if you let them but they cannot efface it from your heart. God wants all of us to be faithful but we are each individually accountable to Him. Cardinals Timothy Dolan, Kasper et. al will all be held personally accountable for their words and actions at the judgment just as much as you or I. As little ones it is our task to remain strong in our own quiet corners and be channels of grace to those that come under our influence. It's not our task to govern the Church.

I do get where you're coming from though, and I share your pain. If Rome doesn't care why should we? That's the seniiment I think. Just try to do only what is possible for you and your family and let go of the rest. It's not easy but it's possible.
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#13
(08-11-2015, 12:02 AM)Renatus Frater Wrote: Let's also remember many great saints were not part of the hierarchy: every single woman saint (including the BVM), St. Benedict, St. Francis, etc.
You're not a shmuch.

(08-11-2015, 06:26 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: If you look at the history of the Church more often than not it has been members of the hierarchy that have sold out and compromised. Of course there are ages where things appear rosier than they are now, but standing where we are now,looking back with a sort of romantic longing, it's hard to say for sure whether they really were.

Your faith is your faith; the hierarchy can scandalize it if you let them but they cannot efface it from your heart. God wants all of us to be faithful but we are each individually accountable to Him. Cardinals Timothy Dolan, Kasper et. al will all be held personally accountable for their words and actions at the judgment just as much as you or I. As little ones it is our task to remain strong in our own quiet corners and be channels of grace to those that come under our influence. It's not our task to govern the Church.

I do get where you're coming from though, and I share your pain. If Rome doesn't care why should we? That's the seniiment I think. Just try to do only what is possible for you and your family and let go of the rest. It's not easy but it's possible.

Thank-you, both of you. They are words I needed to read. That interview was amazing!

The book I ordered, Story of a Soul, came the other day. I think now would be the right time to read it. :)
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#14
Some comforting Bible passages:

Bible Wrote:Luke 8:[23] And when they were sailing, he slept; and there came down a storm of wind upon the lake, and they were filled, and were in danger. [24] And they came and awaked him, saying: Master, we perish. But he arising, rebuked the wind and the rage of the water; and it ceased, and there was a calm. [25] And he said to them: Where is your faith? Who being afraid, wondered, saying one to another: Who is this, (think you), that he commandeth both the winds and the sea, and they obey him?

John 10:[27] My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. [28] And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. [29] That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. [30] I and the Father are one.

Rom 8:[28] And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. [29] For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. [30] And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified. [31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who is against us? [32] He that spared not even his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how hath he not also, with him, given us all things? [33] Who shall accuse against the elect of God? God that justifieth. [34] Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [35] Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword? [36] (As it is written: For thy sake we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.) [37] But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. [38] For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What we can do:
God the Father in St. Catherines Dialogue Wrote:Therefore I give My servants hunger and desire for My honor, and the salvation of souls, so that, constrained by their tears, I may mitigate the fury of My divine justice. Take, therefore, your tears and your sweat, drawn from the fountain of My divine love, and, with them, wash the face of My Spouse. I promise you, that, by this means, her beauty will be restored to her, not by the knife nor by cruelty, but peacefully, by humble and continued prayer, by the sweat and the tears shed by the fiery desire of My servants, and thus will I fulfill your desire if you, on your part, endure much, casting the light of your patience into the darkness of perverse man...again I repeat my promise, that through the long endurance of My servants I will reform My spouse. Wherefore I invite you to endure, Myself lamenting with you over her iniquities.

A good prayer for this end:
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/21079.htm
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#15
(08-09-2015, 10:03 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: Its a well established fact that a group of bishops and even Cardinals is not "the RCC".

The Catholic Church is fully present when only one bishop presides over the Eucharist in the assembly of Catholic faithful:

Quote:See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop.  Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

—St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8.
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#16
(08-11-2015, 12:03 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote:
(08-09-2015, 10:03 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: Its a well established fact that a group of bishops and even Cardinals is not "the RCC".

The Catholic Church is fully present when only one bishop presides over the Eucharist in the assembly of Catholic faithful:

Quote:See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop.  Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

—St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8.

So you agree that “the RCC” met in secret to plan changing what the RCC does?
Or that “the RCC” fell into heresy countless times when bishops fell?

Then clearly the RCC is not the Church of Christ.
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#17
(08-11-2015, 12:27 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: So you agree that “the RCC” met in secret to plan changing what the RCC does?  Or that “the RCC” fell into heresy countless times when bishops fell?

No.  I am disagreeing with the notion that the Catholic Church cannot be present when there is only one bishop is present.  In other words, I'm challenging one of your premises.  Can you be clearer?
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#18
(08-11-2015, 01:06 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote:
(08-11-2015, 12:27 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: So you agree that “the RCC” met in secret to plan changing what the RCC does?  Or that “the RCC” fell into heresy countless times when bishops fell?

No.  I am disagreeing with the notion that the Catholic Church cannot be present when there is only one bishop is present.  In other words, I'm challenging one of your premises.  Can you be clearer?

I said one bishop (or a finite number of bishops, say, a conference of bishops [a body that is not even, necessarily, the collection of bishops of a nation]) is not the Catholic Church. That shouldn't be so controversial. Of course a bishop is not the Church—he is part of the Church, a member of the Church. If one denies this one should hold that a bishop is the Church and so whatever a bishop does the Church does.
I never said anything about presence of the Church or the proper administers of the Eucharist. Frankly I wouldn't even know how to define a “presence of the Church”.

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#19
(08-11-2015, 12:03 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote:
(08-09-2015, 10:03 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: Its a well established fact that a group of bishops and even Cardinals is not "the RCC".

The Catholic Church is fully present when only one bishop presides over the Eucharist in the assembly of Catholic faithful:

Quote:See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop.  Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

—St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8.

Maybe what you're getting at is more along the lines of what I had mentioned earlier about not being so Ultramontanist. Like in Orthodox ecclesiology the fullness of the Church is present when even one bishop presides over the Eucharist surrounded by the faithful. The Church fully exists even in the smallest outpost chapel or makeshift parish in a prison camp shed.  Wherever two or three are gathered in My name, there I am in the midst of them. The Church exists even if a synod of bishops falls away.
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#20
Yes, formerbuddhist, precisely. But I would not concede St. Ignitions of Antioch to the Orthodox. He's ours, too!
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