Battle Lines are Being Drawn, plus more Confusing Statements From Francis
#11
Are we not all bad trees? It is only through our cooperation with the divine plan that we bear any good fruit at all. while I certainly do not agree with many of pope Francis' decisions I have faith that God will never allow his vicar to lead the church into destruction. There have even been popes who were heretics who by the grace of the Holy Spirit did not teach a single false doctrine infallibly. whether his choices are prudent or not we must not fall away from him who was chosen to be the Vicar of Christ. Honestly, separation from the pope is what caused most of these troubles.
"He who rejects you rejects me and he who rejects me rejects Him who sent me." Luke 10:16
Pray for the pope and all the bishops that they get their heads on straight. God will sort it out.
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#12
(09-09-2015, 04:10 PM)Qoheleth Wrote:
(09-09-2015, 03:34 PM)Dominicus Wrote: I agree with Clare. Alhough many of Pope Francis' actions are not ideal and he certainly isn't my favorite pope, he is trying hard to do what he believes to be right. He may be the visible head of the church but that doesn't mean that he has to be impeccable, he is a good man with a great love of God but he is just that, a man. He is just as much of a victim of all of this modernism and liberalism as the rest of us if even more so. We must continue to give him the benefit of the doubt as it's all we can do lest we become Schismatics or worse. We must pray for him and all of the other bishops and possibly make some sort of petition, aside from that we must be patient and trust that God knows what he is doing.


Kind of wondering how this applies to...

Matthew 7:15-17Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.


I have to say I agree here. Part of why I'm more a home aloner that simply prays the Office and the Jesus Prayer most of the time is because I'm not sure I have any faith at all in the modern Catholic Church. I'm not sure sometimes I want to be in communion with Francis or my diocesan bishop, and I certainly do not agree with the kind of bizarre " recognize and resist ultramontanism without obedience stuff of many trad groups. I'm kind of a lone wolf and not sure how to feel like I'm actually within the Church.

I admit in the part in the morning prayers where I am to pray for the bishop I sometimes say the name of my diocesan bishop and Francis and other times I simply say " wherever true bishops in the true Church are" in an agnostic sense. I just don't know how to exist as a Christian other than to keep out of sight and pray according to traditional methods and kind of pretend that we are in a time of mass apostasy and confusion.
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#13
(09-09-2015, 04:34 PM)Dominicus Wrote: Are we not all bad trees? It is only through our cooperation with the divine plan that we bear any good fruit at all. while I certainly do not agree with many of pope Francis' decisions I have faith that God will never allow his vicar to lead the church into destruction. There have even been popes who were heretics who by the grace of the Holy Spirit did not teach a single false doctrine infallibly. whether his choices are prudent or not we must not fall away from him who was chosen to be the Vicar of Christ. Honestly, separation from the pope is what caused most of these troubles.
"He who rejects you rejects me and he who rejects me rejects Him who sent me." Luke 10:16
Pray for the pope and all the bishops that they get their heads on straight. God will sort it out.

Well i guess we won't have long to wait since the "Synod " happens next month.  We will just have to see what God allows  Francis and his minions  to try and pull off.  Until then the beatings will continue  until morale increases Crazy!
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#14
I understand how Formerbuddhist feels but it does no good to alienate ourselves. We can pretend that there is no Church  but it doesn't change the fact that these are validly ordained, "true" bishops of the true church. I'm not saying that we must blindly hang on to every word that the pope says but we can't just  decide who we want to be in communion with. The only other option would be schism which is gravely sinful. These men need our prayers, whether they are in the right or not.
Pray
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#15
(09-09-2015, 05:35 PM)Dominicus Wrote: I understand how Formerbuddhist feels but it does no good to alienate ourselves. We can pretend that there is no Church  but it doesn't change the fact that these are validly ordained, "true" bishops of the true church. I'm not saying that we must blindly hang on to every word that the pope says but we can't just  decide who we want to be in communion with. The only other option would be schism which is gravely sinful. These men need our prayers, whether they are in the right or not.
Pray

I suppose I don't look at it as alienating myself at all since when I pray I feel very connected to the communion of saints,  extending out into the temporal and the spiritual realms. I pray intensely for all Christians, living and dead,and feel somehow that the saints, the Angels, our Lord, the Mother of God and the prayers of all Christians surround me and sustain me. It's hard to explain but nonetheless it's something I have this intuitive sense about that I do not question.

I feel like based on what I've seen,read, heard and experienced of post conciliar Catholicism I'm truly agnostic about what the correct response to the madness is best,although I think some are probably better than others.  I cannot live with the cognitive dissonance of either a trad chapel living as if nineteenth century through nineteen fifties Neoscholasticism and ultramontanism are true any more than I can deal with it in a new rite parish church that looks like the flight deck of the starship enterprise. It's hard to know what is right other than to pray and do what legitimately brings me closer to God.

The wierd thing is that I have never given up prayer, especially liturgical style prayer like the Divine Office, even in the times of my deepest doubts about where the true church lies or just what response to the seeming decomposition and dissolution of Christianity is best.

We all have to find a way to survive somehow. This, for me,is how I manage to do it.


All I'd say about schism it's hard sometimes to know whether I left the Church or the Church left me. I'm sure most trad leaning types can sort of understand this sentiment. 

I'd also say that all men need prayers no matter what, but especially those in places of authority. I still pray for Francis but I'm often not sure whether I am or even if I want to be in communion with him. I'm brutally honest with all this stuff too.

At the end of the day ( and our lives) we all have to try to be honest with ourselves and with God. I pray that he'll not be too hard on any of us for choosing whatever path we take in the Christian life provided we really pray about and do some serious soul searching before we make our way.
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#16
Dominicus, the problem is that yes the pope has not destroyed (and cannot) the Church, but he can make life real difficult. I mean, in an ideal world there's nothing wrong with his motu proprios, but we're not living in an ideal world—that's the strange paradox of VII enthusiasts: they want to be pastoral, but being pastoral means precisely dealing with weird, sinful stuff in the world; it means accounting for bad priests and bishops.
The Catholic Church was probably unique in its defense of traditional marriage (and I mean really traditional, earthly, communal and sacramental marriage; not simply an euphemism for “against sodomy”), and we're losing that. With a single blow the pope changes canon law (so much for collegiality, btw) and throws the Church, as I claimed before, into decades—perhaps centuries—of confusion and tragedies. A couple of decades ago the same thing was done with the Liturgy, now they're after families and morality.
Here's a scenario for you: a 50yo guy is on his third marriage (all ex's still alive), and suppose he had kids with those women. And suppose his current wife left her husband. And they go bishop shopping (not that it would be hard to find a weak bishop) and annuls all other marriages. Can we really believe the judgment of the bishop (or rather, a clergyman delegated by the bishop plus a couple of “specialists”--probably a couple of psychoanalysts really into modern psychology)? Will you go to their wedding? What about the children of this guy or that woman?

Now, I suggest that to be silent right now is wrong. But in the end I'm very, very pessimistic. I think we're getting into real darkness for the next decades, the Church becoming closer and closer to the Anglican church. The Church will not defect, because it cannot, but it will suffer a passion.
I hope I'm wrong. I don't pretend to be a prophet. Last year I had some hopes the Synod could surprise us with a reaffirmation of Catholic doctrine and morals. But now I really don't see that happening in the next centuries. We will have to find our communities and kinda live locally.

By the way, in any case we need good priests, so I hope this, or whatever happens, doesn't discourage you from the priesthood.
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#17
"I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Matthew 28:20.
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#18
I suppose it's in times like these that we look to the Heart of the Church which is the Heart of Christ himself. Though He may be hidden under all of the garbage we see going on in the human element of the Church, he is always there.  We may just be hanging by our nails to the barque but so long as He is its captain it will not sink. I think I misunderstood what Formerbuddhist meant before, I just meant that we must remain in communion with the pope no matter how "un-popey" he may seem he is still the successor of st peter who himself denied Christ three times, I'm sorry if I didn't communicate we'll enough. And as for Renatus, we must keep in mind that this entire life is a passion, a vale of tears, and this is just one of the many faces it takes. And much like John Bosco's vision we need to keep always in mind Our Lady and Christ in the Eucharist.
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#19
(09-09-2015, 06:43 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: "I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Matthew 28:20.

No one is suggesting God is not with us. We are suggesting many prelates do not in their actions orwords seem to be with God.

At what point does "giving the benefit of the doubt" equate to "burying one's head in the sand, and suspending one's logical facilities"?
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#20
(09-09-2015, 07:09 PM)Dominicus Wrote: I suppose it's in times like these that we look to the Heart of the Church which is the Heart of Christ himself. Though He may be hidden under all of the garbage we see going on in the human element of the Church, he is always there.  We may just be hanging by our nails to the barque but so long as He is its captain it will not sink. I think I misunderstood what Formerbuddhist meant before, I just meant that we must remain in communion with the pope no matter how "un-popey" he may seem he is still the successor of st peter who himself denied Christ three times, I'm sorry if I didn't communicate we'll enough. And as for Renatus, we must keep in mind that this entire life is a passion, a vale of tears, and this is just one of the many faces it takes. And much like John Bosco's vision we need to keep always in mind Our Lady and Christ in the Eucharist.

What I bolded I found very insightful. The heart of the Church is the Heart of Christ...I like that image very much. I have no problem intuitively knowing that this is true, but this thing about the Pope I confess I find extremely difficult.

I tend to imagine I'm living in the wilds of Wales or Egypt long before the schism when most Christians didn't know who the pope was or didn't care because he was totally irrelevant to day to day life. I'm not saying you're saying this, but many trads and other Catholics seem to read the modern papacy back into the mists of time as if since the time of St Peter Christians hung on his every word and gesture as infallible guides to orthodoxy, or as if there was no real Christian life or guidance for any local church without the approval of and oversight of Rome.

I find the papacy a real stumbling block to this day. It's something I've tried to resolve, but still have difficulties with. Doesn't mean I deny the primacy of Peter, but I struggle as to what ought to mean and what my response ought to be.

We certainly cannot afford to just suspend judgement and remain loyal just because the world and the majority of Catholics believe a given man happens to be the Pope. I echo what Dave said above about burying ones head in the sand and suspending ones logical faculties.

At what point is loyalty just foolhardiness? I always think of the modern Catholic Church as a once fine dining establishment that has been turned into a fast food joint. You can tell me to keep imagining the well dressed servers, the candlelit ambiance and the fine food but what I see are shabbily dressed high school drop outs,dirty plastic tables under fluorescent lighting and greasy fatty food that leaves me with indigestion and a bloated feeling. Should I keep telling myself this place is really still a fine dining establishment despite the overwhelming evidence my senses tell me to the contrary? I know this is a cheap analogy but it's how I see it sometimes..

It's as if we are asked to close our eyes and imagine a baroque chapel with polyphony and fine sermons when reality is Haugen/Haas in a church cum gymnasium with altar girls in sneakers and pantsuited ladies in the sanctuary.

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