What is considered "Catholic culture"?
#11
(09-26-2015, 02:35 PM)Zea mays Wrote: catholic culture is getting all your sacraments done because of mom and never going to mass or confession and thinking all church dogmas and traditions were abrogated after vatican II.

oh, and that rosaries are cool necklaces.

I don't think this is what's being asked about. I have heard this kind of definition for a "cultural Catholic," but I don't think it is a full description of Catholic culture. There should be much more to it than that.
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#12
(09-26-2015, 03:04 PM)introvert Wrote: I asked a question because it's what I have seen and read to be heralded as the "proper" lifestyle. Do you know what it's like to be told you're not living the "traditional" life because you don't have children? Or your marriage isn't following proper complementary procedure because your husband also does laundry? I have been told these things by Catholics before. I wish I could say I was joking, but it's not one at all. You'd be surprised by the things Catholics have told me...

There is no "proper lifestyle" aside from receiving the Sacraments, trying to be virtuous, loving God and neighbor, and trying to have a conversion of the heart. Some are called to marriage, some to the priestly or religious life, some to be single. Some are meant to be teachers, some are meant to be performance artists, others are meant to climb mountains (and that includes women, too). Whatever.

A marriage doesn't have to entail traditional gender roles if the couple don't want theirs to. It's no one's business but theirs. What matter are personal holiness and trying to inculcate holiness in one's family members. If you stay away from the toxic trads, just stay close to Christ and His Church and you'll be all right.
 
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#13
In the olden days, families were more "traditional" because work was hard and biology was destiny in a practical way.  If a field needed to be plowed, dad did it because he was bigger and stronger. If laundry needed to be done, mom did it because she could do it while watching the children, taking frequent breaks to feed them.

But there were plenty of families in which this traditional pattern was not followed: families which had been hit by tragedy. Dad's leg destroyed by a falling tree, that sort of thing.



The reality is that we shouldn't look at the outer trappings of something in order to find the inner spirituality. Just because one snores so a married couple sleeps apart does not mean that they are having marital difficulties, does it?



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#14
(09-26-2015, 06:33 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: There is no "proper lifestyle" aside from receiving the Sacraments, trying to be virtuous, loving God and neighbor, and trying to have a conversion of the heart. Some are called to marriage, some to the priestly or religious life, some to be single. Some are meant to be teachers, some are meant to be performance artists, others are meant to climb mountains (and that includes women, too). Whatever.

A marriage doesn't have to entail traditional gender roles if the couple don't want theirs to. It's no one's business but theirs. What matter are personal holiness and trying to inculcate holiness in one's family members. If you stay away from the toxic trads, just stay close to Christ and His Church and you'll be all right.

I thought that for a while (emphasized text) but have doubts when I observe what people say and do. It's not that I'm against traditional gender roles in marriage per se, but many unexpected events happen in life which force changes in a marriage. I firmly believe in what the Church says about marriage in Casti Connubii and do believe each couple needs to do their best to decide how to work their relationship. Unfortunately, I've been influenced by a lot of other people's ideals (even though they do nothing to reflect reality).

(09-27-2015, 02:06 PM)newtolatin Wrote: The reality is that we shouldn't look at the outer trappings of something in order to find the inner spirituality. Just because one snores so a married couple sleeps apart does not mean that they are having marital difficulties, does it?

I chuckled at that.
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#15
(09-28-2015, 05:51 PM)introvert Wrote:
(09-26-2015, 06:33 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: There is no "proper lifestyle" aside from receiving the Sacraments, trying to be virtuous, loving God and neighbor, and trying to have a conversion of the heart. Some are called to marriage, some to the priestly or religious life, some to be single. Some are meant to be teachers, some are meant to be performance artists, others are meant to climb mountains (and that includes women, too). Whatever.

A marriage doesn't have to entail traditional gender roles if the couple don't want theirs to. It's no one's business but theirs. What matter are personal holiness and trying to inculcate holiness in one's family members. If you stay away from the toxic trads, just stay close to Christ and His Church and you'll be all right.

I thought that for a while (emphasized text) but have doubts when I observe what people say and do. It's not that I'm against traditional gender roles in marriage per se, but many unexpected events happen in life which force changes in a marriage. I firmly believe in what the Church says about marriage in Casti Connubii and do believe each couple needs to do their best to decide how to work their relationship. Unfortunately, I've been influenced by a lot of other people's ideals (even though they do nothing to reflect reality).

You've got me very curious. I'm assuming you're a trad. Is this right?  And if so, what is it you're seeing or hearing or being told (by other trads?) that is influencing you? And in what way are you being influenced? Positively or negatively? I'm sensing that you're maybe dealing with people who have very specific and rigid ways of seeing things and who are maybe shaming people whose lives don't fit their views of how things should be. Am I on the right track at all?

Me, I think that most women are X, and most men are Y, and that's great and fine and wonderful, part of God's plan. But I also know that there are outliers who don't exhibit some or most of the attributes that most members of their sex possess. And that, too, is fine. I have a lot of trouble both with, on the one hand, people who want to ignore what is generally so, who cringe at making general statements that are simply true, who rage against the fact that the sexes, in general, are different and that that's the way it is and it is good -- and, on the other hand, people who are so rigid that they can't tolerate individual differences, who want to shove every single person into one of two boxes and have their every movement laid out for them based on the box they're shoved into, who can't let outliers live their lives in peace and use whatever gifts they're given, and all that. 

Anyway, I stand by what I wrote. Focus on Christ, do His Will, receive the Sacraments, strive for virtue, bring your family and friends along with you as much as you can, pray, try to make your heart "like unto His," use your gifts for His glory and for the betterment of the world (even if"world" here means "just" your own family and friends) -- and then just live your life and be happy and don't let the b____ get you down.
 
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#16
I've been thinking about this thread for several days. The topic of culture, in general, is of interest to me due to my background - I've posted about this before. My family has both Metis heritage, and Catholic heritage, and neither was transmitted to my generation (of my grandparents' 6 children and 17 grandchildren, I am the *only* practicing Catholic).

I think the idea of "Catholic Culture' is, to some degree, tied to our ethnic origins. For example, many of things we do surrounding Christmas in my family are of the Réveillon traditions, French Catholic in origin but of course we have no idea. We just do them because it's what we always done. Now, those traditions have fallen apart, largely due to us having no collective knowledge about where those traditions originally would have come from - as we grew up and away and lived our largely secular lives, without the foundation knowledge there is no incentive to keep those traditions going.

I see the Church is much the same way. What "Catholic Culture" is now is mostly lost because it wasn't transmitted. We went through the motions, but without knowing why the motions fall victim to cultural entropy - it loses it's momentum and ultimately it's meaning. As an identity, I'm not sure Catholic Culture exists anymore - we are too many generations removed from the knowledge at this point.

(09-26-2015, 11:28 AM)introvert Wrote: Often what I read is Catholic culture is a combination of beliefs and lifestyles. For instance, in order to be a "proper" traditional Catholic one must have at least 4 children, attend a parish offering the EF, wife is a homemaker, husband never does laundry, etc. Please do not get me wrong, I am in no way making a caricature here. This is what is held as traditional Catholic living.

As someone who more or less lives this cariacature, I'd like to address this a bit too. I can't attest if we're a "proper" traditional Catholic family (okay, I know we're not, but we're working on it!), but I can attest that the beliefs of the Church - core beliefs in regards to sexuality and holiness and family - does tend to lend itself to this scenario. Not because it's required, but because it follows certain beliefs and actions.

We have 4 kids because we believe and follow the Church's teachings on this matter and don't use birth control. We only use NFP when we have grave reasons not to conceive, and our little one just celebrated her 1st birthday yesterday, and we're talking about whether we have sufficient grave reasons to keep postponing again (I wanted to wait until she was 1 because I know when I get pregnant my milk supply drops off suddenly). I expect we'll have at least 1 or 2 more before I'm officially "too old". We would attend EF if one was available to us, we settle for the early Sunday morning OF as it seems to be less prone to abuses. I'm a homemaker, but that's from necessity. Originally it was to care for our oldest, who was special needs. I did attempt to go back to work and put her in daycare, and my husband even took a leave of absence from his job to care for her so I could start a job while she was medically unstable and couldn't go to daycare, but in the end I couldn't do it. I needed to be home for my baby. Now, I breastfeed my children, both for their mental and physical benefit but also to space children. I requires me to physically be home.

My husband works hard outside of the house to provide for us, so the lion's share of the housework falls to me because I'm home (and the kids, they are getting old enough to help out!). While he doesn't do laundry (my choice, I hate when other people do the laundry, although he will move stuff from the washer to the dryer if I ask him), he does dishes 2 or 3 evenings a week (I always do them after lunch, we run the dishwasher 2 or 3 times a day most days), vacuums, walks the dog (even though the dog was my idea), taxis the kids to swimming lessons and any other task I request of him. He's a good man.

So even though there's no "code" of what traditional Catholic living is, it often does look like that just because of the beliefs that traditional Catholic espouse. There's a sort of causation, but not a hard and fast rule.
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#17
(09-28-2015, 10:23 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: I think the idea of "Catholic Culture' is, to some degree, tied to our ethnic origins. For example, many of things we do surrounding Christmas in my family are of the Réveillon traditions, French Catholic in origin but of course we have no idea. We just do them because it's what we always done. Now, those traditions have fallen apart, largely due to us having no collective knowledge about where those traditions originally would have come from - as we grew up and away and lived our largely secular lives, without the foundation knowledge there is no incentive to keep those traditions going.

I see the Church is much the same way. What "Catholic Culture" is now is mostly lost because it wasn't transmitted. We went through the motions, but without knowing why the motions fall victim to cultural entropy - it loses it's momentum and ultimately it's meaning. As an identity, I'm not sure Catholic Culture exists anymore - we are too many generations removed from the knowledge at this point.

Would you say when people insist lifestyle A is superior to lifestyle B in Catholicism, they are just basing it off what works for them? I do agree we are too removed from Catholic culture at this point. It's why I hesitate from adhering to a "lifestyle" I'm not sure is actually rooted in Catholicism. For example-- the Church teaches the marriage relationship is one of submission (the wife) and headship (the husband). But She doesn't make rules or guidelines about how married couples should resolve conflicts, how to correct a wife for making poor decisions, or if a husband makes poor decisions.

(09-28-2015, 10:23 PM)PrairieMom Wrote:
(09-26-2015, 11:28 AM)introvert Wrote: Often what I read is Catholic culture is a combination of beliefs and lifestyles. For instance, in order to be a "proper" traditional Catholic one must have at least 4 children, attend a parish offering the EF, wife is a homemaker, husband never does laundry, etc. Please do not get me wrong, I am in no way making a caricature here. This is what is held as traditional Catholic living.

As someone who more or less lives this cariacature, I'd like to address this a bit too. I can't attest if we're a "proper" traditional Catholic family (okay, I know we're not, but we're working on it!), but I can attest that the beliefs of the Church - core beliefs in regards to sexuality and holiness and family - does tend to lend itself to this scenario. Not because it's required, but because it follows certain beliefs and actions.

So even though there's no "code" of what traditional Catholic living is, it often does look like that just because of the beliefs that traditional Catholic espouse. There's a sort of causation, but not a hard and fast rule.

I am REALLY hoping it didn't come across as if I was making fun of that kind of life. I'm well aware lots of traditional Catholics come close to it, and Catholic families will never come close to the featured family of a sitcom :) But what I've mentioned seems to be the minimum good Catholics are supposed to follow.
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#18
(09-28-2015, 08:20 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: You've got me very curious. I'm assuming you're a trad. Is this right?  And if so, what is it you're seeing or hearing or being told (by other trads?) that is influencing you? And in what way are you being influenced? Positively or negatively? I'm sensing that you're maybe dealing with people who have very specific and rigid ways of seeing things and who are maybe shaming people whose lives don't fit their views of how things should be. Am I on the right track at all?

I believe the Church is the one true church, and is the fullest expression of Christianity. I consider myself a devout, practicing Catholic and am serious about my faith. But...I'm not a trad for a few reasons. My husband and I are both Catholic, but he wants to contracept. We've been married for some time and don't have children. I work outside of the home and we switch off chores now and then and share duties. DH is the type of man who believes I need to be self-sufficient because if he's no longer around he wants to know I can take care of myself.

That being said, I don't think either one of us are outliers. We've had a lot of unfortunate life circumstances and I'm not one who believes I need to give my husband a sermon about how this is sin or that is sin, or to have more faith in God. I'm not as rigid about a lot of things as I was in the past, and as a result decided to limit my exposure to people or things that were detrimental to my faith and my psyche.

I have noticed people are very rigid. It's not a charitable way of going about teaching others but it happens. Unfortunately, I've been shamed for not having children in spite of health and financial issues. I've been shamed for not doing more chores. In all of it, I've learned to ignore the modes and methods people come up with and read catechism to learn what the Church and God want. It's helped me become stronger in my faith, but it's caused me to be more at odds with others. I wish I knew what Catholic culture was, and then I'd go find it.
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#19
(09-29-2015, 07:03 PM)introvert Wrote:
(09-28-2015, 08:20 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: You've got me very curious. I'm assuming you're a trad. Is this right?  And if so, what is it you're seeing or hearing or being told (by other trads?) that is influencing you? And in what way are you being influenced? Positively or negatively? I'm sensing that you're maybe dealing with people who have very specific and rigid ways of seeing things and who are maybe shaming people whose lives don't fit their views of how things should be. Am I on the right track at all?

I believe the Church is the one true church, and is the fullest expression of Christianity. I consider myself a devout, practicing Catholic and am serious about my faith. But...I'm not a trad for a few reasons. My husband and I are both Catholic, but he wants to contracept. We've been married for some time and don't have children. I work outside of the home and we switch off chores now and then and share duties. DH is the type of man who believes I need to be self-sufficient because if he's no longer around he wants to know I can take care of myself.

I haven't read anything in your post that would make you, in themselves, "not trad." If you believe what's written on the FETradition page, then you're trad, plain and simple.

As to the sad situation going on in your marriage with regard to contraception, your husband's desire to contracept doesn't make you a sinner -- even if you engage in the marital act with him. If one spouse wants to contracept and the other doesn't, the one who doesn't can't initiate sexual union, but it is OK if he or she were to engage in the marital act if the person wanting to contracept initiates. The spouse wanting to fulfill God's Will should pray for the other spouse's soul, do his best to get the other to see the light (the Conversion of the Heart page talks about how to -- and how not to -- admonish sinners).

And aside from all that, even if it were you who were wanting to contracept, it wouldn't make you "not trad" if you know better and support Church teaching in spite of your sin. Sin doesn't make a person "not Catholic" or "not trad." If it did, there'd be no Catholics, trad or otherwise, at all.

(09-29-2015, 07:03 PM)introvert Wrote: That being said, I don't think either one of us are outliers. We've had a lot of unfortunate life circumstances and I'm not one who believes I need to give my husband a sermon about how this is sin or that is sin, or to have more faith in God. I'm not as rigid about a lot of things as I was in the past, and as a result decided to limit my exposure to people or things that were detrimental to my faith and my psyche.

I have noticed people are very rigid. It's not a charitable way of going about teaching others but it happens. Unfortunately, I've been shamed for not having children in spite of health and financial issues. I've been shamed for not doing more chores. In all of it, I've learned to ignore the modes and methods people come up with and read catechism to learn what the Church and God want. It's helped me become stronger in my faith, but it's caused me to be more at odds with others. I wish I knew what Catholic culture was, and then I'd go find it.

There's a lot of that sort of nosy busy-bodiedness in some small sub-sets of the trad world. That sort of thing is what I call "toxic 'traditionalism'" -- which isn't traditionalism at all, but is nastiness, anomie, fear, and a slew of defense mechanisms wrapped up in religious trappings. It's no one's business but yours, your spouse's, your priest's, and God's what chores you do or don't do around your house. It's no one's business how many kids you have.

People looking at things from the outside too often make rash judgments -- which aren't theirs to make in the first place -- about others' souls. That is a sin. A nice young Catholic couple in their 30s, married for 12 years, have "only" one kid. The thing to do is to give them the benefit of the doubt, assume the best, and shut yer yap. The outsider has no idea what health problems there might be, how many miscarriages have been suffered through, whether or not the couple even feel close to each other and engage in the marital act, whether one of the spouses has suffered some horrible sex abuse and has trouble having sex, whether the couple have decided to live as "Josephites" and forego sex, etc. And it's no one's business unless that couple were to make it someone's business by turning to that someone for advice or whatever.

People just loooooooove to make assumptions, gossip about what they think they know, and feel superior to others. Jesus had words for those types. That sort of person has plagued the religious world for thousands of years. Ignore them as much as you can, pray for them, and live your life.

Bottom line:  if you believe what's on the FETradition page, you're a trad. And no one but Christ has any place to judge your soul. As to judging actions, unless those actions directly affect person X or the society person X lives in, person X should only admonish with great charity, humility, and prudence, and only after that person actually knows what's going on and has standing to make such admonishments. Making assumptions, admonishing someone's actions without knowing what the Truth is, admonishing someone without removing the plank for his own eye first, publicly rebuking (most of the time anyway), gossip, detraction, slander, prying into people's private lives and acting as if they owe you answers to your personal questions, etc. (everything talked about on the Conversion of the Heart page) -- these have no place in a virtuous person's life. While in one sense, sin is everyone's business in that it affects the Body of Christ in spiritual ways, and while we are our brother's keeper, it's to us to pray for them, make sacrifices for them, teach (especially by example) --  not gossip and point fingers. Don't let ANYONE keep you away from Christ, His Church, and capital-T and small-T tradition.

Re. "Catholic culture":  "culture" is defined like this: "A culture is a way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next."  If you're Catholic and you intellectually submit to Church teaching, your beliefs and values are already Catholic. Your behaviors should line up by doing what the Church says. The symbols of Catholic culture and the symbols of our Saints are all around you (well, at least if you're in a pre-conciliar parish built with Catholic aesthetics). And the customs, the small-T traditions such as those centered on the liturgical year, customs dealing with family life -- well, see this section of the FE site:  http://www.fisheaters.com/beingcatholic.html    See this particular page to read about the Catholic home:  http://www.fisheaters.com/domesticchurch.html  All that is what "Catholic culture" is. Different families have different ways of incorporating Catholic culture in their homes (often depending on their ethnicity), some embrace a lot of traditions while others only a few., etc. But what makes a person Catholic are the acceptance of the Faith and the Sacraments. What makes a person a trad is accepting the fullness of the Faith, as practiced by our spiritual ancestors, and as laid out on the FETradition page. 
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