"I wonder how Luther ever broke the spell"
#11
can we say...SSPX?
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#12
(09-27-2015, 01:46 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Papal liturgies are the official benchmark for Roman Catholic liturgy period. What went on in Philly, Madison Square Garden or World Youth Day is the public face of Roman Catholicism. If you want to see what Catholicism looks like today look no further than the latest papal liturgy and what type of antics go on.

Like I said before it's impossible to outside an act of blind faith in some sort of promise about " the gates of hell" to believe that the Church of today is in any way shape or form the same Church as 100 or even 500 years ago based on watching these officially sanctioned liturgies.

Seriously, what goes on in Philly, Madison Square Garden or World Youth Day is what passes for Roman Catholicism today in the upper echelons of the Church.

The saddest thing is that even the new rite liturgy does not have to be a cheesy free for all, there's no need for it. There are parishes and monasteries that offer the new rites with a sense of holiness and reverence,and yet it's in spite of the pope and the hierarchy!

What is needed is an end to ultramontanism and a revolt against the papacy and the hierarchy at the hands of the laity, good and holy priests and a handful of bishops. What's needed is for faithful serious about safeguarding the Faith and our liturgical heritage to start living the Faith as fully and reverently as possible even if it means telling the pope and the world episcopate to shove it.

I hate to say it but the pope and the bishops are the problem, not the solution. I owe no allegiance to men who destroy our patrimony and reduce our liturgical heritage to selfies at the altar, sock puppets and rock and roll music.
Prayers for them yes, but allegiance no. 

Don't you really see the blatant contradiction between claiming so emphatically that the papal Masses that happened in the last days under Francis simply is Catholicism and your calling for an end of ultramontanism?
Catholic is what was believed always, by everyone and everywhere, not what happened the last two or three years (or even the last five decades, for that matter), in some places under some people. Affirming this is precisely not falling into the ultra-ultramontanism.

And of course one needs faith. That's in the Bible. And don't make fun of the promises of our Lord.
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#13
I had no intention of making fun of the promises of our Lord,I was only saying that for me it takes an act of blind faith to believe that what passes as Catholicism in the mainstream really is so,or that the Roman Catholic Church with the ridiculous and farcical and seemingly pointless modern papacy is really the True Church. This,if I'm honest, is how I feel.

Every Christian believes in our Lords promise to the Church, but has conflicting ideas about just where this Church is.

And yes I still believe that for the most part what the Pope does sets the tone for the Church, that the cheesy papal liturgies are the official face of Roman Catholicism whether we like it or not. 

The SSPX really are one of the only groups out there that are actually resisting the Pope, an ecumenical council and the worlds episcopate to the face,although I'm still up in the air as to where I stand with them. 

It's just troubling when the only way to be a Catholic in good conscience is to pretty much ignore the pope and the worlds bishops and reject the last half century of official rites,rituals and teachings while falling back on things that the modern hierarchy has largely shown nothing but scorn, derision and embarassment for.





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#14
(09-27-2015, 07:46 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: And yes I still believe that for the most part what the Pope does sets the tone for the Church, that the cheesy papal liturgies are the official face of Roman Catholicism whether we like it or not.

How is that not ultra-ultramotanism?
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#15
(09-27-2015, 07:48 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote:
(09-27-2015, 07:46 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: And yes I still believe that for the most part what the Pope does sets the tone for the Church, that the cheesy papal liturgies are the official face of Roman Catholicism whether we like it or not.

How is that not ultra-ultramotanism?


It is, and most Catholics are fervent ultramontanists. Everything the pope says and does represents the voice of God and His will for the Church. Personally I'd like to see this change but not sure how other than to take the SSPX route.

All I'm saying is that when I look around at the Catholic media during this big papal visit it's apparent that everything this man says and does matters to the life of the Church; the world is watching. How a pope offers the liturgy is setting the tone for the rest of the church. Is this an unfortunate accident of history? Perhaps, but it is what it is at this point in time.
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#16
Well, most Catholics also contracept, divorce, etc., even a frightful number of them don't even believe in the Real Presence. Not sure “most Catholics” should be our guiding standard.

I don't know, I don't go to the SSPX and I don't find this ultramontanism at the TLMs I go to. This obsession with the pope (any pope, really) is an illusion of the media and the quirk of some NO liberals (or sedevacantist kooks). It simply doesn't represent the real life of a typical traditional Catholic.
When the pope legislates and speaks officially I can get a bit upset if he does something I think is a disaster. But what can one do about the silliness of world youth shenanigans or popish rock album? I know I won't say this is Catholicism now.
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#17
FB you said " The SSPX really are one of the only groups out there that are actually resisting the Pope, an ecumenical council and the worlds episcopate to the face,although I'm still up in the air as to where I stand with them. 

It's just troubling when the only way to be a Catholic in good conscience is to pretty much ignore the pope and the worlds bishops and reject the last half century of official rites,rituals and teachings while falling back on things that the modern hierarchy has largely shown nothing but scorn, derision and embarassment for. "


and RF you say  .."Well, most Catholics also contracept, divorce, etc., even a frightful number of them don't even believe in the Real Presence. Not sure “most Catholics” should be our guiding standard.


This is the situation we are ALL going through and yes it is very hard to just go with plain common sense and admit the truth of the situation.  When i look at the Church of the past 2000 years and compare it to the Church of the last  fifty years., it is plain to see it is not the same Church, except in  name only.  Except for a few groups with a really tough resolve to maintain the actual Catholic  Faith, it is all but lost for the most part.  The Church of the last  fifty years is NOT the Catholic Church i signed up for and i will not close my eyes and hold my nose as it were and continue to pretend  that  the Church of present day is satisfactory when it is plainly not the case.  In no way can i begin to imagine Jesus telling His people to accept this mess and  let the faith  that was handed down for so long just evaporate from the memory of men, and that is what is happening today.  With every generation that passes it will be harder  and harder for anyone to have the understanding  or the  will to put it all back together.  Only by the Grace of God will it return to what it is supposed to be.  The Faith is being  preserved but it is not because of the faithfulness of Rome but of scattered  groups here and there.  For years everyone with eyes to see, saw the faith eroding away,  myself included  and all the while making up excuses  and more or less just kept hoping that it would  start heading back in the right direction, but we all know how that went don't we.

Seems to me none of us are going to have any real peace in this world.  All we can do is Pick Up Our Cross Daily  and with our dim vision try to somehow stay on that very narrow path. 

God Help us.


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#18
I will say that the pope sets the tone. The underlings always do their best to please their boss. Many don't seem to recognize who the real Boss is.

Anyway, we have many examples of bishops who were more conservative under Benedict and now are more liberal with Francis. You have a group of bishops who will always stand fast in the traditions of the faith. Some who will always be more liberal and bordering, if not being in full blown heresy. Then the group who blows with the change of the wind. Whatever the standard the pope sets, they follow. I tend to think a majority of bishops fall in this group.

This of course then trickles down to the parish level. Priests also have a similar split to bishops (conservative, liberal or those who take their cue from their bishop)... and on down.

If it ever happens, it will happen from the top, no matter how much we want to say it's a grass roots effort. The grass roots may sustain the Faith. It may help many young holy priests rise up. It may help them then become bishop and then pope. But major change will only come from the top.
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#19
Qoheleth, you should be careful--if I'm not mistaken its a heresy to claim the diocese of Rome has defected (or can defect).
I'm not really sure what you're claiming "its not the faith". The rites? In what sense they are or are not the faith? And of course, you have the odd claims of people like Ferrara saying the NOM is actually the indult (and Benedict hints at this saying the old rites were never abrogated), so I'm not really sure what you're saying is officially not the Church.

GangGreen, if you read the pre-VII popes you might form a picture of a very unhealthy Church, not so much in the hierarchy but among the layfolk. If God is in charge (which He is--this is the most logical consequence of monotheism), then this is a punishment. We have the leaders we deserve.
Now, I know some people object to "trads", but from my experience the traditional priests are exceedingly good priests. If that is not a sign of God that He wants the old rites preserved and that He still loves us, then nothing can be said to be a sign of God. And we should honor this gift from God! Let us not take it for granted like most of our grandparents.

I think my own interpretation of things attitude is well summarized in this sermon.
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#20
Well RF... as the saying goes..none of us is a smart as all of us....just cant  put what has been going on in the Church in the last 50 years or so, with the previous close to 2000 years,  It doesnt seems to stack up at all . just being  honest with what i see.  Oh and guess i am meaning "Rome " in the more generic sense. if that makes any sense.
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