Where is the line?
#21
(10-10-2015, 07:46 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote:
(10-10-2015, 06:26 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: Down the street and around the corner.

Now, the crucial thing is: does it have a roundish top or pointy?  :LOL:

It's what's inside that really counts!  And even more importantly, what goes on there!!  :) :)

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All the above are Eastern Catholic churches.
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#22
This thread presents an interesting question.  We currently go to the FSSP, but we would just as soon go to the SSPX if they had air conditioning.  I have already determined never again to go to the Novus Ordo, so that is not an issue for me (I was a home-aloner briefly before moving closer to all these trad parishes).

If the stuff hits the fan with this synod, it would indicate to me a fundamental problem with Catholicism.  Since I think that sedevacantism is an absurd clinging to papal infallibility, I might just stick with the FSSP and see what happens since I'm rather certain they would resist the nonsense.  Otherwise, I would be very tempted to return to Orthodoxy, if I was able to do so.

In thinking about this, though, I'm not sure where the line is.  It seems rather clear to me that the pope and many bishops are already promoting heresy.  So I'm not really sure why this synod seems so much different, but it definitely does.  Whether I like it or not, this synod seems like "the line" for me.
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#23
I think the line is quite clear.

One must maintain communion with Rome. I can't call myself an orthodox Roman Catholic and assist SSPX or Indie Chapel Masses.  Perhaps that's easy for me to say because I have a local diocesan TLM to assist on Sunday, but as one in need of daily Mass, I'll still assist at a Novus Ordo Mass on weekdays and feel perfectly comfortable ding so. Your daily Mass goers are generally orthodox and the terrible contemporary/protestant hymns aren't part of the weekday Mass as a rule.

jmo
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#24
I think the real question asked in the OP is: what sort of evidence would convince you that the Catholic Church isn't the one true Church?

For me, the answer is: I don't know. I believe the Catholic Church is the one true Church, for thousands of reasons. I feel very convinced of it, and its something I'm willing to bet my life and eternal soul on. Though as always, outright heresy being taught as dogma would do it. The Church has already defined that to be impossible, and if it happened... well... contradictions can't be real.

What I would believe in then would be a good question.

As for now I remain a Catholic with a preference for the older forms of liturgy, in union with Rome and sympathy for the SSPX and an interest in the Eastern Catholics.
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#25
(10-15-2015, 11:05 AM)Whitey Wrote: I think the line is quite clear.

One must maintain communion with Rome. I can't call myself an orthodox Roman Catholic and assist SSPX or Indie Chapel Masses.  Perhaps that's easy for me to say because I have a local diocesan TLM to assist on Sunday, but as one in need of daily Mass, I'll still assist at a Novus Ordo Mass on weekdays and feel perfectly comfortable ding so. Your daily Mass goers are generally orthodox and the terrible contemporary/protestant hymns aren't part of the weekday Mass as a rule.

jmo

Funny you should say such a thing, while a Bishop of the Church, while visiting the SSPX seminaries by order of the Holy See, said almost the exact opposite.  :LOL:


Thinking about this I think I agree with Leo above here. The fact is, I believe in the Church not for one reason but various, and this not by reason alone but by conviction of faith, which illuminates reason. So I suppose there isn't just one thing that would make me an unbeliever—though, of course, I've been shaken lately, but nothing that a deep breath, a good confession and some therapeutic reading of the cool Saint of Aquinas couldn't heal.

The worst case scenario I could think of is if they change, say, the Catechism. For instance, if they not only omit the part about homosexual desires but say it is a good thing. Or ordain women, or any such impossibility. I don't know what I'd do but watch very closely what the faithful Cardinals and Bishops do and follow them, who, I hope if this comes to happen, I'll still believe are pastors.

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#26
My answer to that question, Leonard, is nothing, because by the grace and mercy of God, I have the gift of faith, which is a supernatural virtue.  I believe God.  My faith, therefore, is not merely the conclusion of syllogism or the result of an investigation.  If it were, it would be only human faith.

I think we need to discuss the meaning of "divine and Catholic faith," because it's relevant to the OP's question.  I also think it helps to consider a traditional Act of Faith:

Domine Deus, firma fide credo et confiteor omnia et singula quae sancta ecclesia catholica proponit, quia tu, Deus, ea omnia revelasti, qui es aeterna veritas et sapientia, quae nec fallere nec falli potest.  In hac fide, vivere et mori statuo.  Amen.
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#27
This article explains why it is important to understand divine and Catholic faith:  http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05...lic-faith/
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#28
Where's the line? There is no line in the sand for me because  whatever else, I'll carry on in a chapel where the Latin Mass is said and traditional doctrine is upheld. The Lord will draw the line in the sand and that line I suppose is for Our Lord to know and for us to find out.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#29
(10-10-2015, 01:40 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Let's be honest, things have been pretty bad and most of us haven't left and probably never will. The only thing that might change over the years is how we manage the cognitive dissonance inherent in modern Catholic life in the average parish. Some of us might go Sede for awhile, become militant SSPX adherents, Eastern Rite enthusiasts or maybe like myself, occasional lone wolf home aloners, but ultimately most of us will never leave.

I guess I would be considered an Eastern rite enthusiast, though I've had to attend the Pauline Mass ( :( ) in the last month. Haven't been able to attend divine liturgy at the Byzantine Catholic parish due to work and time. Though the Byzantine priest knows of my forays into Byzantine Catholicism, I find his homilies lacking any subject material that would be considered "controversial" to secular ears; abortion, gay marriage, etc. He's even spoken to me and stated he tries to avoid such controversies. That's odd, considering the parishioners appear to be very strong (outwardly) Catholic and it's a rather small parish.

Yet like you, I can never see myself not being Catholic. Many people in our world are miserable and lost without God; I know many such individuals. It is by the grace of God that one would have a conversion of heart and it saddens me that so many I know are completely impervious to conversion. I think co-workers find me amusing ("she is so religious and she is a scientist dur"). Although, it sometimes leads to people asking me questions.

I am not sure where I draw my line. Hand-raising/hand-holding during the "Our Father" at Mass is miniscule (sic?) compared to the continued mess of church politics, synods, and heretical clergy.
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#30
(10-18-2015, 04:30 PM)Sequentia Wrote:
(10-10-2015, 01:40 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Let's be honest, things have been pretty bad and most of us haven't left and probably never will. The only thing that might change over the years is how we manage the cognitive dissonance inherent in modern Catholic life in the average parish. Some of us might go Sede for awhile, become militant SSPX adherents, Eastern Rite enthusiasts or maybe like myself, occasional lone wolf home aloners, but ultimately most of us will never leave.

I guess I would be considered an Eastern rite enthusiast, though I've had to attend the Pauline Mass ( :( ) in the last month. Haven't been able to attend divine liturgy at the Byzantine Catholic parish due to work and time. Though the Byzantine priest knows of my forays into Byzantine Catholicism, I find his homilies lacking any subject material that would be considered "controversial" to secular ears; abortion, gay marriage, etc. He's even spoken to me and stated he tries to avoid such controversies. That's odd, considering the parishioners appear to be very strong (outwardly) Catholic and it's a rather small parish.

Yet like you, I can never see myself not being Catholic. Many people in our world are miserable and lost without God; I know many such individuals. It is by the grace of God that one would have a conversion of heart and it saddens me that so many I know are completely impervious to conversion. I think co-workers find me amusing ("she is so religious and she is a scientist dur"). Although, it sometimes leads to people asking me questions.

I am not sure where I draw my line. Hand-raising/hand-holding during the "Our Father" at Mass is miniscule (sic?) compared to the continued mess of church politics, synods, and heretical clergy.

What I like more than culture war sermons is a parish church that is filled up with sacred signs and symbols, and where the thrust of the priest is in trying to get people to become immersed in the cycles of feasts and fasts of the liturgical year, and where the divine office has just as much a pride of place as a reverent liturgy. The Office and the Mass are inseparable. The feasts and fasts and seasons all fit together. We need parishes where we literally live according to a seperate calendar, where we are challenged to live and pray even now as citizens of heaven with only one foot in the world.

Sadly, I've only found this sense of rootedness in the liturgical year through my fidelity to praying the office at home. Its not to say I never attend the liturgy, it's just that there is no rootedness there.  Whether it's East or West the only way to really have this sense of being rooted in the Tradition is to be one as familiar with the Divine Office and the calendar of feasts, fasts and saints and customs as possible.

In modern Catholicism for the most part these customs and even the calendar is rooted in the 1950's through to the present, it doesn't go deeper than that. Everything is the product of liturgy committees who rewrote everything in light of Vatican II.

What keeps me going is knowing that somehow our traditions are still there,and even if we must walk alone we can, it's our choice. We grin and bare it in the whitewashed dead zone of the modern church in order to go to confession and attend Mass at least once a week but we keep the Faith of our fathers at home, away from the prying eyes of career bishops, mediocre priests and parishes stuck in the revisionist Catholicism of the 1970's.

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