Where is the line?
#41
(10-25-2015, 08:41 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: Thank-you everyone for your thoughtful and honest replies. Truthfully, I've had a hard time coming back and reading them, I suppose I am upset with myself for even asking the question or contemplating it's answers.

I find that the modern Church is disturbing and I'm having a hard time reconciling what she is with what she teaches in the Catechism. Personally, it is destroying me. I'm trying to "don't worry and Catholic on", but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to participate in our local NO parish, or to maintain personal devotions, or do any of the "the motions". What's the point when no one else does, and no one else seems concerned that no one else does.

I feel your pain, PM, and can echo much of what FB wrote above in reply to you.  I have recently chosen to dissociate myself from the local N.O. parish--I finally reached my own breaking point there.  It was exacerbated by the fact that I entered Christianity through its Eastern portal and the Western Church, especially but not solely as represented by post Vatican II Catholicism is particularly difficult to swallow.  It's even had me to the point of doubting the very fundamental basis of my faith altogether at times.  And, while in my opinion, the Orthodox Church has  more to recommend itself to me, even that is very problematic for a number of reasons, mostly (but not only) practical and logistical.  So, at least for the time being, I'll be, along with FB and God knows who else, a "home aloner" and hope and pray for God's mercy.
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#42
PM, I'm sorry to hear that. I'd strongly suggest you try to find a traditional parish. Really, just to go to Mass (forget for a moment about making friends, being a pillar of the parish, etc.), even if the priest totally skips homily (which, to be honest, sometimes I rather prefer it), but just being in the Mass, with no shenanigans, with no novelties, with reverence and contemplation (you know, as von Hildebrand says, that time when you are totally there, given to the highest good) is a breath of fresh air. So, even if you can go there once or twice a month, I believe it would help your faith, especially if the main problem is this disconnect between doctrine and practice that you say you see on your parish, because at the TLM you see Catholicism as it should be (rather, as it is).

I don't know about your situation, but if I lived two and a half hours away from a TLM I would still go (but, still, I don't have children). And I'd think very hard about moving closer to it—even if its in a bad neighborhood, moving one hour or one hour and a half closer to it would make a big difference and still quite far from bad neighborhood.

Now, it is absolutely necessary that you maintain a life of prayer. And that the Vatican cannot take it away from you—in the end, as St. Augustine teaches, in line with the whole classical tradition, the summum bonum is such that it cannot be lost. If you're shaking it means you're putting your trust somewhere else. If you don't yet have the habit of mental prayer then acquire it.

I'm no better, really. I just don't completely despair because I have good Masses and priests available, through absolutely no merit of my own. I'm just repeating what the more knowledgeable people say.
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#43
(10-26-2015, 11:19 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: PM, I'm sorry to hear that. I'd strongly suggest you try to find a traditional parish. Really, just to go to Mass (forget for a moment about making friends, being a pillar of the parish, etc.), even if the priest totally skips homily (which, to be honest, sometimes I rather prefer it), but just being in the Mass, with no shenanigans, with no novelties, with reverence and contemplation (you know, as von Hildebrand says, that time when you are totally there, given to the highest good) is a breath of fresh air. So, even if you can go there once or twice a month, I believe it would help your faith, especially if the main problem is this disconnect between doctrine and practice that you say you see on your parish, because at the TLM you see Catholicism as it should be (rather, as it is).

I don't know about your situation, but if I lived two and a half hours away from a TLM I would still go (but, still, I don't have children). And I'd think very hard about moving closer to it—even if its in a bad neighborhood, moving one hour or one hour and a half closer to it would make a big difference and still quite far from bad neighborhood.

Now, it is absolutely necessary that you maintain a life of prayer. And that the Vatican cannot take it away from you—in the end, as St. Augustine teaches, in line with the whole classical tradition, the summum bonum is such that it cannot be lost. If you're shaking it means you're putting your trust somewhere else. If you don't yet have the habit of mental prayer then acquire it.

I'm no better, really. I just don't completely despair because I have good Masses and priests available, through absolutely no merit of my own. I'm just repeating what the more knowledgeable people say.

We have talked about moving back to our hometown (Winnipeg), but the derth of services available for our Autistic daughter is atrocious. For the time being, we're much better off where we are for her sake. We have also contemplated taking a job for my husband in Edmonton, but again we're faced with the same lack of services, only moreso. Both of the centres have active, vibrant traditional communities.

I've been trying to take the approach of "bloom where you're planted", assuming that I'm supposed to be right here in the right now. Opportunities to leave have always fizzled out, and we've committed to staying here. I literally just officially quit my job back home after being on unpaid leave for nearly 10 years!

We have talked about making a regular trip into Winnipeg to go to Mass, but it's terribly early (9 a.m.), so that means we'd have to leave by 6 just to make it, or stay overnight. Plus, because literally our entire families are there, we could never go to Winnipeg without seeing at least some of them without family freaking out, so that stretches . I can't afford to be away for every weekend if we were to stay over to make it do-able. Moving closer puts us in a no-man's-land. Manitoba is weird that so little of the land is actually lived on, 3/4 of the entire population lives in the Winnipeg region/Red River Valley. There is no "in between".

It will sort itself out. God brought us out here for a reason (if I detailed *how* we ended up here, you would probably agree). Maybe this is just the Devil testing me. I have had dark periods before, albeit for different reasons, and I've always emerged from the other side stronger than ever.

Thanks.
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#44
Our Lord did say the road is narrow that leads to eternal life and few will find it, so while definitely concerning, it shouldn't be surprising when most people don't really care.  It's good to also remember this is nothing new.  I posted some examples a while back in this thread:
http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.p...sg34001111

Here's another, from the autobiography of St. Anthony Mary Claret:

St. Anthony Mary Claret Wrote:814. Madrid, April 15, 1864. A very pious and zealous lady told me, "There is a great deal of ignorance among the clergy. A great number of country parishes would be better off if the people had no priest at all, and just said the rosary together, rather than having to listen to the Mass of a stupid and immoral priest who does nothing but scandalize them."

Sound familiar?

He also talks about his participation at a Synod (Vatican I in 1870), where he had a stroke from being so upset by the blasphemies and heresies being uttered by bishops there:

St. Anthony Mary Claret Wrote:I leave the house before 8:00 and don't get home until 2:00 in the afternoon and, at times, my head feels like a bomb. On the twenty-ninth of this past May, I had something like a stroke. (Letter 1446.) There are two main causes for this latest trouble I've been feeling: first, the extraordinary heat at the beginning of this summer; second, the business of the Council itself, especially the matter of the Church and the Pope. Because I can't bear that anyone or anything should trespass in this matter--I'd gladly shed my blood for it, as I said in open session--when I heard the errors and even heresies and blasphemies that were being spoken on it, I was so overcome by indignation and zeal that the blood rushed to my head and affected my brain. My mouth wouldn't hold back the saliva and it ran down my face, especially on the side where I have the scar from the wound I received in Cuba. Besides this, my speech is greatly slurred. 
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/libr...claret.pdf
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#45
(10-26-2015, 11:19 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: Now, it is absolutely necessary that you maintain a life of prayer. And that the Vatican cannot take it away from you—in the end, as St. Augustine teaches, in line with the whole classical tradition, the summum bonum is such that it cannot be lost. If you're shaking it means you're putting your trust somewhere else. If you don't yet have the habit of mental prayer then acquire it.

Amen to that !

After reading The Great Means of Salvation and Perfection by St Alphonsus, I've greatly upped my prayer time.
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#46
I think the best three options are FSSP, SSPX, and Institute of Christ the King if you live within their area.

Definitely do not lose Faith in the Papacy and the promise of perpetual successors.
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#47
(10-06-2015, 01:48 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: So, a question for those Fishies who are like me... who are faithful to Rome, but at time finds the Sed position attractive, or at least, somewhat logical.

Where is the line for you to remain within the official structure of the Church? Ordination of women? Communion for remarried?

And where would you go? SSPX? Somewhere else? Lone Wolf?

I don't find the Sedevacantist position attractive. I think it was invented by the Devil in order to deceive the faithful. Even non-Catholics recognize that we have a Pope and even though they do not agree with him they at least recognize who he is. 
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#48
(12-26-2015, 01:27 AM)Poche Wrote:
(10-06-2015, 01:48 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: So, a question for those Fishies who are like me... who are faithful to Rome, but at time finds the Sed position attractive, or at least, somewhat logical.

Where is the line for you to remain within the official structure of the Church? Ordination of women? Communion for remarried?

And where would you go? SSPX? Somewhere else? Lone Wolf?

I don't find the Sedevacantist position attractive. I think it was invented by the Devil in order to deceive the faithful. Even non-Catholics recognize that we have a Pope and even though they do not agree with him they at least recognize who he is.
 

I'm not so sure. For those with a logical scholastic bent the sedevacantist option is quite attractive. The case is laid out quite clearly using nothing but common sense and pre Vatican theology. I'm not totally on board myself, but its not as absurd an idea as some imagine it to be.

Personally i find it worse that non catholics believe Francis is a real pope, as they gleefully use his own words and actions to bludgeon the more conservative and traditional amongst us into silence. In some ways things would be a lot easier if sedevacantism were true. It would give a clear picture that what passes for Catholicism in most places is really not, and would be a lot easier to discard in toto should a real pope come along to roll back the clock.

That being said I'm not a sedevacantist, but think people ought to take the idea with a bit more seriousness than just to brush it off as an absurd tool of satan.
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#49
The sede position would surely make it easier to roll back the clock and such. However, nothing is ever easy, we should all know that.Only God knows the truth and I'll leave it to Him to sort it out. In the meantime I see no reason to leave the official structures of the Church unless something so ridiculous happens that I have no choice but to accept the sede position. There have certainly been some ridiculous things, but the heretics within the Church have continued to tip-toe the line, knowing full well that there are certain aspects of Catholicism that they cannot change even if they change all of the externals to ignore them.
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#50
(10-10-2015, 09:20 AM)AllSeasons Wrote:
(10-06-2015, 01:48 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: So, a question for those Fishies who are like me... who are faithful to Rome, but at time finds the Sed position attractive, or at least, somewhat logical.

Where is the line for you to remain within the official structure of the Church? Ordination of women? Communion for remarried?

And where would you go? SSPX? Somewhere else? Lone Wolf?

I think I would draw the line at heresy.  Even the pope cannot go against doctrine.  And if we ever have a heretical pope, then it would probably push me over the edge.  What would I do then?  I don't know.  If there's schism, I'd probably go with the faction that stays true to the Magisterium; otherwise, probably the SSPX.

Francis, Evangelii Gaudium n. 247: "We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked".

ECUMENICAL COUNCIL OF FLORENCE (1438-1445)
It firmly believes, professes and teaches that every creature of God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because according to the word of the Lord not what goes into the mouth defiles a person, and because the difference in the Mosaic law between clean and unclean foods belongs to ceremonial practices, which have passed away and lost their efficacy with the coming of the gospel.

Ex Quo, Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV
Similarly, we profess that the legalities of the Old Testament, the ceremonies of the Mosaic Law, the rites, sacrifices, and sacraments have ceased at the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ; they cannot be observed without sin after the promulgation of the Gospel

Pius XII, MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI
29. And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16
Jn 8:42-45
1 Cor 7:19
2 Cor 3:11-15
Gal 3:26-29
Gal 3:16
Heb 10:9
Heb 8:6-13

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