Salvation in the "Dark Ages"
#1
How did people obtain salvation from the years 400 AD up to the beginning of the 13th century? It seems nigh impossible given what's been added on since then. The Rosary was given to St. Simon Stock to convert the Albigensians. Today, one gets the impression that the Rosary has been elevated to an almost eighth sacrament. If one doesn't pray the Rosary EVERYDAY, then it seems as though one will not obtain salvation. The same with wearing the brown scapular. Every time I go to Confession I'm always admonished to say my daily Rosary. Father, are you then saying that I will not obtain salvation if I don't? This past week we had the Virgin pilgrim state which travels the county in our church. On Friday, 30 October 2015, the statue will depart packed into a specially designed trailer used to haul it around the country. The congregation was told to bring a white  cloth to wave as the statue departed. What? Waving white cloths as a statue is hauled away in a trailer?? This being the case it's no small wonder that Protestants think Catholics worships statues. These goings on don't help my Faith any; in fact they're a detriment.  Huh?
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#2
People obtained salvation by attending the Church services, receiving the Sacraments, and through the grace of the services and the Sacraments, living the Christian life in the world, which includes avoiding sin and growing in unity with God.

The purpose of any devotion, including the Rosary, is to aid in the virtue of faith, which causes one of attend Church and receive the Sacraments devotedly.  Devotions also help us to focus on God, which helps one to live the Christian life in the world, avoid sin, and grow closer to God.

The Rosary is not magical -- it serves the same purpose as any devotion.  These things are not ends in themselves, but means to achieve the end of salvation.
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#3
Quote: How did people obtain salvation from the years 400 up to the beginning of the 13th century?

People obtained salvation just like they had always done since the beginning of the Catholic Church and since the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Namely salvation through God's grace. This is the means of salvation by which people were saved in the Apostolic Church, the Early Church, the Medieval Church, and the modern Church. The means of salvation have always been the same, are the same, and will always be the same. We are saved by God's grace through a cooperation by faith and works.

http://www.fisheaters.com/solafide.html

Quote:The Rosary was given to St. Simon Stock to convert the Albigensians. Today, one gets the impression that the Rosary has been elevated to an almost eighth sacrament. If one doesn't pray the Rosary EVERYDAY, then it seems as though one will not obtain salvation. The same with wearing the brown scapular. Every time I go to Confession I'm always admonished to say my daily Rosary. Father, are you then saying that I will not obtain salvation if I don't?

First of all the rosary was given to St. Dominic. The Brown Scapular was given to St. Simon Stock. Similarly neither of these things are 8th sacraments. They are however sacramentals, and very powerful sacramentals. Sacraments from my knowledge infuse grace in the soul while sacramentals help one to strengthen the grace that the sacraments bestow. (someone else can elaborate better on the differences). Nevertheless although these sacramentals don't save by themselves, for only God can do that, they do help one to be saved by being helps for salvation.

In regards to the Blessed Mother I recommend that you read books by St. Louie de Montford. Mary is the mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix of all graces and so she does play a large part in one's salvation by helping one get closer to the source of salvation, the God-man Jesus Christ and her son.

Quote: This past week we had the Virgin pilgrim state which travels the county in our church. On Friday, 30 October 2015, the statue will depart packed into a specially designed trailer used to haul it around the country. The congregation was told to bring a white  cloth to wave as the statue departed. What? Waving white cloths as a statue is hauled away in a trailer?? This being the case it's no small wonder that Protestants think Catholics worships statues. These goings on don't help my Faith any; in fact they're a detriment.  Huh?

I don't know too much about the things you are describing, but it seems that these things are nothing other than pious devotions. The Church has always had pious devotions and she always will. You can have these pious devotions without "worshiping" statues. If you find that these types of devotions don't help your faith, then you are not obliged to have them. They are not binding on the Catholic Faithful. Find which devotions help your faith and which don't but don't assume that people are worshiping statues because they have these harmless devotions.

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#4
(10-26-2015, 12:42 PM)ArturoOrtiz Wrote:
Quote: How did people obtain salvation from the years 400 up to the beginning of the 13th century?

People obtained salvation just like they had always done since the beginning of the Catholic Church and since the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Namely salvation through God's grace. This is the means of salvation by which people were saved in the Apostolic Church, the Early Church, the Medieval Church, and the modern Church. The means of salvation have always been the same, are the same, and will always be the same. We are saved by God's grace through a cooperation by faith and works.

http://www.fisheaters.com/solafide.html

Quote:The Rosary was given to St. Simon Stock to convert the Albigensians. Today, one gets the impression that the Rosary has been elevated to an almost eighth sacrament. If one doesn't pray the Rosary EVERYDAY, then it seems as though one will not obtain salvation. The same with wearing the brown scapular. Every time I go to Confession I'm always admonished to say my daily Rosary. Father, are you then saying that I will not obtain salvation if I don't?

First of all the rosary was given to St. Dominic. The Brown Scapular was given to St. Simon Stock. Similarly neither of these things are 8th sacraments. They are however sacramentals, and very powerful sacramentals. Sacraments from my knowledge infuse grace in the soul while sacramentals help one to strengthen the grace that the sacraments bestow. (someone else can elaborate better on the differences). Nevertheless although these sacramentals don't save by themselves, for only God can do that, they do help one to be saved by being helps for salvation.

In regards to the Blessed Mother I recommend that you read books by St. Louie de Montford. Mary is the mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix of all graces and so she does play a large part in one's salvation by helping one get closer to the source of salvation, the God-man Jesus Christ and her son.

Quote: This past week we had the Virgin pilgrim state which travels the county in our church. On Friday, 30 October 2015, the statue will depart packed into a specially designed trailer used to haul it around the country. The congregation was told to bring a white  cloth to wave as the statue departed. What? Waving white cloths as a statue is hauled away in a trailer?? This being the case it's no small wonder that Protestants think Catholics worships statues. These goings on don't help my Faith any; in fact they're a detriment.  Huh?

I don't know too much about the things you are describing, but it seems that these things are nothing other than pious devotions. The Church has always had pious devotions and she always will. You can have these pious devotions without "worshiping" statues. If you find that these types of devotions don't help your faith, then you are not obliged to have them. They are not binding on the Catholic Faithful. Find which devotions help your faith and which don't but don't assume that people are worshiping statues because they have these harmless devotions.

You must have misread what I wrote. I was talking about lending credence to Protestant views that Catholics worship statues. As far "pious devotions" go it's just not a part of my life experience even though I was raised in the Traditional Faith. When we had processions we had them inside the church not marching up and down the streets listening to cat-calls from passers-by. In this age of apostasy no one, I believe will be converted by such displays.
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#5
The Faith, in some respects, is a living, breathing organism. The truths she teaches are immemorial, but the practices evolve in time. Things like the rosary were introduced at a moment in time when we *needed* it, collectively, as a Church.

As for the statue thing, the statue is representative of someone, such as a photo, right? Have you never put photos in a casket? Burned photos of someone you've been scorned by? The image is powerful, and serves as a proxy... I agree the waving a white flag thing to be a bit odd, but it's symbolic.
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#6
The Rosary is so popular because it's pretty much a perfect devotion and was given to us by the Queen of Heaven. Is it necessary for salvation? No. Someone can be saved and never pray the Rosary. However, there have been many promises linked to devout recitation of the Rosary and it helps many people grow strong in faith. So it remains popular and highly recommended by many.

The Rosary is also a great form of penance. It takes about 20 minutes. One recites 50 Hail Mary's (which is much more than the one or two most priests give), 5 Our Fathers, 5 Glory Be's, the Apostles Creed, the Salve Regina, among other things. Add on to that the meditation/contemplation of the Mysteries. Also, the fact that most devout Catholics know the Rosary, it's a simple penance to give.
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#7
About the rosary: its a simple prayer that most people can pray, and one that naturally leads into mental prayer. So, even besides the promises attached to it, by itself it tends to make one's inner life flourish. Also, it usually takes a certain amount of time necessary to fulfill one's duty to pray in a day (like 15, 20min, even though, by charity, one is supposedly to pray more).

Processions are one of the oldest things the Church does (famously its believed that due to a procession St. Gregory made that the plague of Rome was curbed, so it was common even back then), and they have a high place of honor in pious practices. It was the common feature of Medieval life. You probably live in a Protestant country for your processions to be mainly inside the Church. Historically they were always outside.
And who cares about the Prots and pagans around? Processions are a joy precisely because one solemnly ignores them: in full-on trad mode, with incense, surplices, candles, chanting we simply pass them by, declaring the Church's royalty and exalting God.

If some Prots starts annoying you, just do what these folks did  Grin



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#8
The Dark Ages is a enemy of the Catholic Church term those ages were Ages of Faith
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#9
(10-26-2015, 01:38 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: The Faith, in some respects, is a living, breathing organism. The truths she teaches are immemorial, but the practices evolve in time. Things like the rosary were introduced at a moment in time when we *needed* it, collectively, as a Church.

As for the statue thing, the statue is representative of someone, such as a photo, right? Have you never put photos in a casket? Burned photos of someone you've been scorned by? The image is powerful, and serves as a proxy... I agree the waving a white flag thing to be a bit odd, but it's symbolic.

Well, a Canadian. How's the PC doing in the great wilderness? Not too well from what I read. As for the statues I get it and always have; I was referring to Protestants. Anyway, I've been around Tradition for over 20 years so I believe I have a fairly good grasp of things Catholic. Nevertheless, I'm just not a Rosary person. My preference is for the Breviary. I also belong to the Living Rosary Association whereby I pray my Dedicated Decade every day; that is the best I can do. And I'm not a procession person. People probably think I'm some sort of heathen but that's just the way things are. I think most Traditional Catholics have their own set of devotions of which they are especially fond. I've always been a person who goes my own way. This is not to imply that I abide by the old canard of "do whatever you want when you want." No, no, no. I'm just a slugger trying to get along with my Faith as best I can given that the present state of the Church in it's human element which is going to hell in a hand-basket.

Cymru am byth!
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#10
[quote='Renatus Frater' pid='1295040' dateline='1445899138']
About the rosary: its a simple prayer that most people can pray, and one that naturally leads into mental prayer. So, even besides the promises attached to it, by itself it tends to make one's inner life flourish. Also, it usually takes a certain amount of time necessary to fulfill one's duty to pray in a day (like 15, 20min, even though, by charity, one is supposedly to pray more).

Processions are one of the oldest things the Church does (famously its believed that due to a procession St. Gregory made that the plague of Rome was curbed, so it was common even back then), and they have a high place of honor in pious practices. It was the common feature of Medieval life. You probably live in a Protestant country for your processions to be mainly inside the Church. Historically they were always outside.
And who cares about the Prots and pagans around? Processions are a joy precisely because one solemnly ignores them: in full-on trad mode, with incense, surplices, candles, chanting we simply pass them by, declaring the Church's royalty and exalting God.

If some Prots starts annoying you, just do what these folks did  Grin

Yes, being well supplied with rocks of various shapes and sizes.  Grin
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