inseparability of human sou/body = inseparability of Jesus' human/divinity?
#1
Ever since Pope Francis' remarks during Vespers during his visit to the US about the failure of the cross, I've been contemplating the Nature of Jesus.

(for those of you unfamiliar with those remarks, see here and here)

I was taught that Christ, as the second person of the Trinity, was fully human and yet fully God, and that those natures cannot be separated.

I was also taught that we are both physical creatures and spiritual creatures, and that those natures cannot be separated.

So is it fair to say that Christ's divinity is analogous to our soul? Or am I treading into hearsay?

Also, where was Jesus' human part before He was born?

Thanks.
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#2
(11-22-2015, 12:23 AM)PrairieMom Wrote: Ever since Pope Francis' remarks during Vespers during his visit to the US about the failure of the cross, I've been contemplating the Nature of Jesus.

(for those of you unfamiliar with those remarks, see here and here)

I was taught that Christ, as the second person of the Trinity, was fully human and yet fully God, and that those natures cannot be separated.

I was also taught that we are both physical creatures and spiritual creatures, and that those natures cannot be separated.

So is it fair to say that Christ's divinity is analogous to our soul? Or am I treading into hearsay?

Also, where was Jesus' human part before He was born?

Thanks.

Well, the problem here is time. You are assuming Jesus in whatever nature is limited by time. In fact you are making the same assumption about us. To God, time is irrelevant. Think about reading a book. In the book there is a sequence of events that simulate a "time line." For you however, it doesn't matter if you stop reading the book for a week because when you pick up where you left off its the same "time" in the book. The reason is that you exist outside the timeline of events in the book. You can just as easily "go back to the beginning" as you could "fast forward to the end." You could read the end before the beginning and vice versa.

Our limited human thinking leads us to think that our timeline is the defacto standard when it all reality it is not from God's perspective. God can be thought of as reading our story much like we read book. His reading it makes it real.....and everlasting. Of coarse He is also the Author. He gave Jesus a human form from the start based on how He wanted things to go, but we just didn't get to see It until He revealed it to us.
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#3
(11-22-2015, 12:40 AM)divinesilence80 Wrote:
(11-22-2015, 12:23 AM)PrairieMom Wrote: Ever since Pope Francis' remarks during Vespers during his visit to the US about the failure of the cross, I've been contemplating the Nature of Jesus.

(for those of you unfamiliar with those remarks, see here and here)

I was taught that Christ, as the second person of the Trinity, was fully human and yet fully God, and that those natures cannot be separated.

I was also taught that we are both physical creatures and spiritual creatures, and that those natures cannot be separated.

So is it fair to say that Christ's divinity is analogous to our soul? Or am I treading into hearsay?

Also, where was Jesus' human part before He was born?

Thanks.

Well, the problem here is time. You are assuming Jesus in whatever nature is limited by time. In fact you are making the same assumption about us. To God, time is irrelevant. Think about reading a book. In the book there is a sequence of events that simulate a "time line." For you however, it doesn't matter if you stop reading the book for a week because when you pick up where you left off its the same "time" in the book. The reason is that you exist outside the timeline of events in the book. You can just as easily "go back to the beginning" as you could "fast forward to the end." You could read the end before the beginning and vice versa.

Our limited human thinking leads us to think that our timeline is the defacto standard when it all reality it is not from God's perspective. God can be thought of as reading our story much like we read book. His reading it makes it real.....and everlasting. Of coarse He is also the Author. He gave Jesus a human form from the start based on how He wanted things to go, but we just didn't get to see It until He revealed it to us.

Wow. I've never thought of it like that before. What an excellent explanation!

(plus, I always seem to forget that if I put the book down, it will still be the same "time" when I pick it back up... I don't have to keep reading it right this very minute!)
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#4
A human is a body animated by a metaphysical life-thing we call a soul.

In the Eucharist Jesus is truly present "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity". You can't separate any of those from His essence, or Being. That's what He IS... If there's anything missing then it's not Him!
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#5
Human bodies and souls can be separated: that's what death is.  But it is traumatic and disordered, which is why the resurrection of the body, reuniting souls and bodies, is important.  From what I understand, Jesus' body and soul were separated from each other at His death (when He descended into hell), but His divinity was not separated from either.  I can try and dig it up, but I think there's some Church document that defends the idea that Christ's body in the tomb would be adored with latria since it was still united to the divinity.  (Edit: it's the Bull Auctorem Fidei of Pope Pius VI).
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#6
(11-23-2015, 10:26 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: Human bodies and souls can be separated: that's what death is.  But it is traumatic and disordered, which is why the resurrection of the body, reuniting souls and bodies, is important.  From what I understand, Jesus' body and soul were separated from each other at His death (when He descended into hell), but His divinity was not separated from either.  I can try and dig it up, but I think there's some Church document that defends the idea that Christ's body in the tomb would be adored with latria since it was still united to the divinity.  (Edit: it's the Bull Auctorem Fidei of Pope Pius VI).

Does Jesus have a soul apart from his Divinity? Or does the Divinity impart his soul?
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#7
(11-23-2015, 10:44 AM)PrairieMom Wrote:
(11-23-2015, 10:26 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: Human bodies and souls can be separated: that's what death is.  But it is traumatic and disordered, which is why the resurrection of the body, reuniting souls and bodies, is important.  From what I understand, Jesus' body and soul were separated from each other at His death (when He descended into hell), but His divinity was not separated from either.  I can try and dig it up, but I think there's some Church document that defends the idea that Christ's body in the tomb would be adored with latria since it was still united to the divinity.  (Edit: it's the Bull Auctorem Fidei of Pope Pius VI).

Does Jesus have a soul apart from his Divinity? Or does the Divinity impart his soul?

My understanding is He has a human soul, but it is not "apart" from His divinity due to the hypostatic union--they are joined, but remain distinct (just like His body is not apart from His divinity, while remaining distinct).  That's why one reason we believe He has two wills, one human and one divine--His human will is from His human soul and divine will from uHis divinity. 

St. Augustine said talking about the Trinity has the most dangers for error, so hopefully someone will correct me if I said something wrong!
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#8
(11-23-2015, 10:56 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(11-23-2015, 10:44 AM)PrairieMom Wrote:
(11-23-2015, 10:26 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: Human bodies and souls can be separated: that's what death is.  But it is traumatic and disordered, which is why the resurrection of the body, reuniting souls and bodies, is important.  From what I understand, Jesus' body and soul were separated from each other at His death (when He descended into hell), but His divinity was not separated from either.  I can try and dig it up, but I think there's some Church document that defends the idea that Christ's body in the tomb would be adored with latria since it was still united to the divinity.  (Edit: it's the Bull Auctorem Fidei of Pope Pius VI).

Does Jesus have a soul apart from his Divinity? Or does the Divinity impart his soul?

My understanding is He has a human soul, but it is not "apart" from His divinity due to the hypostatic union--they are joined, but remain distinct (just like His body is not apart from His divinity, while remaining distinct).  That's why one reason we believe He has two wills, one human and one divine--His human will is from His human soul and divine will from uHis divinity. 

St. Augustine said talking about the Trinity has the most dangers for error, so hopefully someone will correct me if I said something wrong!

That makes a lot of sense. I've often wondered about Him praying in the Garden, and how part of Him really seemed to resist this idea that he needed to die. Clearly, it would His human part, but I was never sure how that "fit in", so to speak.
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#9
Bl. Columba Marmion is crystal clear on these questions in the beginning of his book, Christ, the Life of the Soul.

Christ has a human soul. However, he is not a human person.  His person is the person of the Word, the Second Person of the Holy a Trinity. The person is one's sense of "I".  The divinity and humanity are united in His person.
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#10
(11-23-2015, 04:47 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: Bl. Columba Marmion is crystal clear on these questions in the beginning of his book, Christ, the Life of the Soul.

Christ has a human soul. However, he is not a human person.  His person is the person of the Word, the Second Person of the Holy a Trinity. The person is one's sense of "I".  The divinity and humanity are united in His person.

If he has a human soul, and a human body, why doesn't that make him human? We say he was fully human and fully God.  To my knowledge, there was no qualifiers on that.
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