Cardinal Turkson says don't breed like rabbits in order to save "Mother Earth"
#31
The vagueness is a feature not a bug—in this case. In virtue ethics the goodness of an action is to be determined case-by-case in view to the development of moral character of the actor, his role in the community, etc.
This is the same vagueness that is employed when a person decides to join the SSPX, or—to a less dramatic extent—when the person decides to participate exclusively in the traditional liturgies, etc.
In this sense the Catholic Church is rather wise when she tempers law with justice (in this classical sense). To legislate every single little detail of life is a modern deviation.

Now, the hard thing is that it takes wisdom to decide whether what to do in this scheme. That's why people frequent say that one should consult a priest, etc. (not only in matters of NFP but in general, for the development of virtues).

Your case waiting until you guys know more could be a wise decision, and if it is determined that you cannot have children the following might apply to you

Pius XI Wrote:Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.

But, again, I insist for the reasons above, that you consider thinking more about this and talking to a good priest and don't take the advice of people who don't know you (and really, that's why I also say this little bit when it comes to the SSPX, rooting out vices, developing virtue, etc.)

Reply
#32
This question is why it is so important for the Church to have well-formed priests. One with such questions should be able to turn to a priest for solid advice -- that is one of the reasons why we have priests. They should give us the very same advice that Christ would give. And the well-formed priests will give such advice, if we trust enough to ask (and are able to find such a priest in the first place).

The vagueness, such as it is, is not meant for every person to decide for him or herself.  The vagueness feature, as it has been put, is there to allow for a spiritual guide to provide the proper advice based on the specific circumstances.
Reply
#33
(12-10-2015, 02:47 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote:
(12-10-2015, 02:09 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(12-10-2015, 01:48 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: The reason it isn't more specific is because, as "Saint Sebastian" says, the couple has to form their own consciences.

I'm wondering what you all think of this situation: a couple has been pregnant numerous times, each pregnancy ending in miscarriage. Doctors can give no specific reason for the miscarriage, and have not stated that it is inevitable.  Is a couple justified in avoiding pregnancy to avoid the emotional and physical trauma of repeated pregnancy and miscarriage? I would say yes, but I doubt, if the church gave more exact and specific guidelines, that this one would come up.

I would think they'd be perfectly justified in avoiding further pregnancy and likely miscarriage.  I'm no doctor, let alone an OB/Gyn, but I'd think that repeated miscarriages could NOT be healthy for the woman, on any level. 

Is that a hypothetical situation or one that you've encountered somehow?

It is my wife and my situation. Repeated early miscarriages with no explanation beyond "well, it happens."  We are pursuing adoption currently, and we may try again biologically at some point, but my wife is concentrating on losing weight (much of which was gained over the several pregnancies) and both of us are focused on preparing emotionally for the possibility of another loss.  It is also possible that advancements will be made in explaining and treating the cause of the miscarriages, though I somewhat doubt it.

Anyway, my situation is one I never expected and never saw in any NFP class or book. So I appreciate the "vagueness" of the "just reason" terminology.  There may be many just reasons that don't fit the normal pattern and would be hard to delineate.

I'm very sorry to read that.  It must be terribly difficult and stressful for you both!!  I pray that God will bless and remember you and your wife always, and, if it is His will for you, that you will have many children, either natural or adopted----or both! 
Reply
#34
Good old family planning is fine with in the sacremnt of holy matramony. And we all know the Father created the universe for us let alone this planet. We are to have dominion over the earth and that comes with the responsibility of taken good care of it.
Reply
#35
(12-10-2015, 04:12 PM)ermy_law Wrote: This question is why it is so important for the Church to have well-formed priests. One with such questions should be able to turn to a priest for solid advice -- that is one of the reasons why we have priests. They should give us the very same advice that Christ would give. And the well-formed priests will give such advice, if we trust enough to ask (and are able to find such a priest in the first place).

The vagueness, such as it is, is not meant for every person to decide for him or herself.  The vagueness feature, as it has been put, is there to allow for a spiritual guide to provide the proper advice based on the specific circumstances.

I agree. Unfortunately, I know people who asked a priest for advice on family planning and were told to use birth control. It's a bit of a "chicken or the egg" issue.  If that couple hadn't known birth control was wrong, they would have followed the priest's bad advice. But in not following it, they are "deciding for themselves" and choosing to ignore his instructions. In this day and age, we have to be able to judge what priests we should listen to, which in turn means forming our consciences to be able to do this.

As for my own situation, I have talked to priests. I wasn't really posting for advice, though I appreciate the prayers and sympthy from those who have posted here.  I just think my situation is one that might not "make the list" if the Vatican were to release "The Complete Guide to When Avoiding Pregnancy is Acceptable."
Reply
#36
Back to the original topic of the thread, Cardinal Turkson has clarified.  I find it interesting that he addresses the Pope previously using the phrase "breed like rabbits."

“But in responding to a question that contained the expression ‘birth control,’ my intention was to present the Church as not inimical or opposed to the idea of spacing births,” he said. “The issue the Church has always had with this is method, how you do it? But the pope used the unfortunate expression of ‘breeding like rabbits.’”

Cardinal Turkson continued: “When I used the phrase ‘birth control,’ what I had in mind was the Church’s own traditional teaching about responsible parenthood. So wherever anyone reads ‘birth control’ in the BBC interview, they should understand it as meaning ‘responsible parenthood.’”
http://aleteia.org/2015/12/10/cardinal-t...-comments/
Reply
#37
If one does not have a good hold on what one is trying to say or one lacks the ability to speak with clarity, one should not speak.
Reply
#38
(12-11-2015, 12:09 PM)ermy_law Wrote: If one does not have a good hold on what one is trying to say or one lacks the ability to speak with clarity, one should not speak.

Ha!  That would should probably silence most of us most of the time--especially yours truly  :grin:!  What was that Jesus said about being held accountable for every idle word??
Reply
#39
I suspect many church leaders worry more about what they think the outside world thinks than what their own people think.  There are certainly secularists, Protestants, Jews, etc. who would look at Catholics and say "they breed like rabbits" (though some subsets of those groups outbreed Catholics, most don't as a general rule.)  if that's what Cardinal Turkson or Pope Francis is thinking about, then their comments make a certain amount of sense.  The Church does not teach "reproduce at any cost," and at times it might be useful to correct that misconception on the world's part.

This forgets the fact that insiders will also hear the comments.  The mother who has followed church teaching and had nine children hears top leaders in the Church insulting her. The couple that follows Catholic teaching and never has sexual intercourse because of health issues hears casual, confusing talk about how the church "is fine with birth control."  What I think they don't understand or care about is that some of us are actually trying to live out the Church's teaching. I know most Catholics use artificial birth control without thinking about it. Maybe Turkson and Francis think we all do. But some of us don't, and we understand why it is sinful, and we actually try. . I don't think they realize how easy it would be for a couple in a difficult situation, or even not in a difficult situation, to just give in and use it. They should be speaking clearly in a way that supports us, not vaguely in a way that undercuts us.
Reply
#40
(12-11-2015, 12:56 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(12-11-2015, 12:09 PM)ermy_law Wrote: If one does not have a good hold on what one is trying to say or one lacks the ability to speak with clarity, one should not speak.

Ha!  That would should probably silence most of us most of the time--especially yours truly  :grin:!  What was that Jesus said about being held accountable for every idle word??

Fortunately, no one is paying attention to what we say except a handful of other people who already agree for the most part, anyway!

:-)
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)