Receiving Eucharist while cohabiting/sleeping together in civil marriage
#21
(12-17-2015, 03:17 AM)Might_4_Right Wrote: Congratuations! on you wifes Pregnancy. When is she do.

Thanks, she's due in July. We can't wait!

Quote:All looks Kosher to me, Matt1992. Nither one of you are under the curse of mortal sin.

We honestly didn't think we were in a state of mortal sin either, as long as we remain continent until our Catholic wedding. Though we respect our pastor very highly, so we don't know what to think about our state.
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#22
Let's just break this down to its simplest parts -- you are living with and sleeping with a woman who is not your wife. 

I would suggest to you that, by focusing only on the lack of an intimate sexual relationship, you have taken a limited and inaccurate view of the sinfulness of your situation. Let me illustrate this with an example: As a married man, if I were to go spend the night with a female friend and sleep in the same bed with her without having a sexual relationship, have I violated the moral law in a grave way?
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#23
(12-18-2015, 10:07 AM)ermy_law Wrote: Let's just break this down to its simplest parts -- you are living with and sleeping with a woman who is not your wife. 

I would suggest to you that, by focusing only on the lack of an intimate sexual relationship, you have taken a limited and inaccurate view of the sinfulness of your situation. Let me illustrate this with an example: As a married man, if I were to go spend the night with a female friend and sleep in the same bed with her without having a sexual relationship, have I violated the moral law in a grave way?

In that case you would have violated the moral law because you're married and that would hurt your wife and suggest that you're committing adultery or bordering on it. This is the woman I am legally married to and who is carrying my child. It's pretty difficult for us to not be together after all this, and she is upset by the idea of her living somewhere else. So I don't know what we're going to do. It doesn't seem like it but we both actually are devout traditional Catholics who have always been against fornication, but we got ourselves into a hard situation lately.
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#24
It seems to me that you are either unintentionally or intentionally failing to understand that your civil marriage is meaningless for purposes of the moral question that you have raised. 

I wonder why you asked the question if you are so unwilling to hear the answer... You say you've put yourself into a difficult situation, and that is true to a certain extent. 

In point of fact, though, your situation is not objectively difficult since it could be resolved by your getting married to this woman, and that rectification would take approximately 5 minutes.  The difficulty in your situation is self-imposed, due to the fact that, for whatever familial reasons, you are not rectifying it by marrying the woman with whom you are living.  If your family cannot consider your eternal salvation more important than a ceremonial, then there is an issue.  Your duty to your wife-to-be should also include your willingness to stand up to your family so that you can take adequate steps so that she can return to the state of grace.  As it is, you are toying around with your salvation and the salvation of your wife-to-be. 
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#25
Once the priest has made his decision, and it would seem you confided in him in trust, I think you should try to do has he says. I feel he was reasonable. (I admit to a bias in this application of "second opinions" as it comes to clergical advice, it seems so ......  secular.) He still considers your marriage date and that is good news, so he is not overly concerned probably because you show responsibility and desire to do the right thing.

I don't think your re-arrangement would be more taxing than I see some globe trotters doing the seemingly impossible, jumping through loops if you will, to try to make that vacation schedule. These people have an uncanny knack at getting everything to fall into place where they want it. Perhaps you could consider one of you staying at a friend's place. The wait time isn't that long. 

It would be a good sacrifice for both of you starting out in your new life.

So my advice, try harder.  Smile

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#26
Matt1992, you seem terribly hung up on the legal marriage which is immaterial in the question of the moral nature of your cohabitation. My advice is to all together ignore the legal marriage and attempt to rectify your current situation either by marrying the girl now or by arranging alternate sleep arrangements. Is there a monastery that would allow you to stay with them until the time of your marriage? A friend?


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"Punishment is justice for the unjust." Saint Augustine of Hippo
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#27
(12-21-2015, 10:16 AM)ermy_law Wrote: It seems to me that you are either unintentionally or intentionally failing to understand that your civil marriage is meaningless for purposes of the moral question that you have raised. 

I wonder why you asked the question if you are so unwilling to hear the answer... You say you've put yourself into a difficult situation, and that is true to a certain extent. 

In point of fact, though, your situation is not objectively difficult since it could be resolved by your getting married to this woman, and that rectification would take approximately 5 minutes.  The difficulty in your situation is self-imposed, due to the fact that, for whatever familial reasons, you are not rectifying it by marrying the woman with whom you are living.  If your family cannot consider your eternal salvation more important than a ceremonial, then there is an issue.  Your duty to your wife-to-be should also include your willingness to stand up to your family so that you can take adequate steps so that she can return to the state of grace.  As it is, you are toying around with your salvation and the salvation of your wife-to-be.

This is what I was trying to say, only they said it better.

(12-18-2015, 03:54 AM)Matt1992 Wrote:
(12-16-2015, 10:30 AM)PrairieMom Wrote:
(12-16-2015, 04:24 AM)Matt1992 Wrote: Our families think of us as husband and wife so there's nothing embarrassing about her being pregnant at our wedding. [...] the priest said he can give us a wedding either in mid-January or our original date, and my parents insist that's not enough time for them to prepare.

This seem contradictory. What are your parents preparing for? If they already consider you spouses, I fail to see the problem here.

I would respectfully suggest, for the sake of your immortal souls, to clear up this situation as soon as humanly possible. I speak that as someone who was 3 months pregnant and cohabitating when they got married.

My parents are preparing for a huge wedding with a ton of guests. My mom is totally obsessed with weddings and wants everything to be perfect. We didn't even tell our parents about our civil marriage until after we were married (we totally eloped). We are going to do everything we can to get married ASAP, because we just want to be together without also being in a state of mortal sin.

You're already eloped one. What's keeping you from doing it the second time? Clearly, their participation wasn't important enough to you the first time around, or you had other reasons not to include them, so I fail to understand why it's taking precedence now. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but we're talking about your souls and the sake of your unborn child.

If it's the party your mom is after, there's nothing stopping her from having a party at any time. That's not contingent on getting your marriage validated.
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#28
(12-21-2015, 02:31 AM)Matt1992 Wrote: This is the woman I am legally married to and who is carrying my child.

You may be married in the eyes of the IRS, but in the eyes of God.

Were you to separate now, there'd be a lot of legal paperwork to get a civil divorce, but the Church would let you marry someone else, because you're not actually married.

(12-21-2015, 02:31 AM)Matt1992 Wrote: It's pretty difficult for us to not be together after all this, and she is upset by the idea of her living somewhere else. So I don't know what we're going to do. It doesn't seem like it but we both actually are devout traditional Catholics who have always been against fornication, but we got ourselves into a hard situation lately.

And you can get yourself out reasonably easy now. The longer you let it go on, the worse it will get.

Thus you and she need to make a serious commitment and sacrifice. If you can't do that now for the sake of your children and your own souls, you won't do it later when this mess gets worse.

Once your child is born and his mother's needs are greater, you won't be able to move out as easily.

You need to move out for enough time as it will take to get proper instruction and prepare for marriage. You can ask the priest to expedite this, but admittedly you got yourself into this mess. If you want out and want to make it right you have to be willing to do what is necessary. Show that to the priest and he will happily marry you and get you back to the sacraments.

Will it be hard? Yes.

The real question is do you want to save your soul and that of your girlfriend? Do you want the graces needed to be good parents, or are you going to rob your child of parents who are living in the state of grace and thus meriting grace for their child because you're unwilling to make a tough, but small sacrifice of separating for a while so as to properly marry?
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#29
Woa!!

I didn't get to read all of the replies to your question, Matti92, but much of what I have read seems overly legalistic, if not downright Pharisaical.

This is a question that has confronted many missionaries... one that I personally knew and he confided his concerns and the response of his bishop to his request for guidance (way before the New Order upheavals).

A marriage can be validly contracted by any man and woman with the appropriate intentions and commitment.
The Church's blessing is not necessary. Just think about it. If a pagan or Protestant converts to the Faith they are not required to undergo another marriage if they are already married and, perhaps, with a large family. They are not considered to have been fornicating for all their married life either.

It may be sinful for a Catholic to be married outside the Church if they knowingly and willingly did so for some wrong reason. But such a sin would possibly be only a sin of negligence or omission, and should be Sacramentally forgiven with the usual conditions of contrition and confession.

By the same token, there is no real substitute for a Catholic to have a Church-blessed sacramental union.

Don't beat yourself (and your missus) up too much about it.
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#30
(12-27-2015, 08:16 AM)Oldavid Wrote: A marriage can be validly contracted by any man and woman with the appropriate intentions and commitment.
The Church's blessing is not necessary.

While that is true for non-Catholics and the non-Baptized, it is most certainly not true for a Catholic.

A baptized Catholic cannot validly marry outside of the Church. Period.

He must have the marriage witnessed by a properly delegated cleric (deacon, priest or bishop). This has been the longstanding discipline of the Latin Church.

There is only one exception : there is a physical or moral impossibility of having a properly delegated cleric witness the marriage for at least a month.

Cf. Benedict XVI, Omnium in mentem (26 Oct, 2009)

The OP's civil marriage is certainly invalid (except for its civil effects). As above: as far as the IRS is concerned he can file joint taxes, but as far as God is concerned, he is cohabitating outside of wedlock.
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