sin and Novus Ordo?
#25
(12-25-2015, 06:19 PM)little_flower10 Wrote: Also the "black Mass" is done for the purpose of sacrilige. The parish priest down the road who says the Novus Ordo wants to worship God and intends to do what the Church does. Maybe other things that are done especially by the congregation are imperfect but its not like where going to a black Mass where the purpose is to commit sacrilige.

You miss the whole point of my post, and thus the argument.

I am not comparing the Novus Ordo Mass with a Black Mass.

Let me say that again, in case it was not abundantly clear : I am not comparing the Novus Ordo Mass with a Black Mass.

What I did write is that "valid" does not mean "good".

Clearly even if a Black Mass would be "valid", no one would argue that I am obliged to attend it on Sunday if I have no other Mass, but some here treat the Sunday obligation as that kind of legalism.

The principle is that we cannot do something which is harmful to our faith, because above all other obligations is the obligation to have Faith, Hope and Charity -- that is, to remain in the State of Grace. Whatever harms this can never be obligatory.

It is clear that a Black Mass would do this. Thus we cannot attend it.

For very different reasons, I, and many others, argue that the Novus Ordo, even in its most pristine form (let alone the form most frequently seen in practice), no longer an explicitly Catholic rite. It's creators deliberately removed explicitly Catholic elements in order to remove from it the explicit expression of the Catholic Doctrine on the Mass. They also intentionally removed what would explicitly suggest the Real Presence, the unique and essential role of the priest alone, and what would express expiatory Sacrifice. They deliberately changed the rite to unduly emphasize the role of the faithful, even suggesting that a Protestant notion of the faithful together calling down the consubstantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist by their profession of faith in it.

Thus, for those who understand this, and know it to be harmful to their Catholic Faith, they must practically behave as if the Novus Ordo Mass were a Protestant service or Orthodox service. They could not attend it in good faith, outside of exceptional circumstances, because it poses a serious danger of weakening their Faith. Were they to do so, knowing it could harm their faith, they would sin against the Faith. Obviously that would be a subjective consideration. One could never be said to commit a sin merely by attending the Novus Ordo, only if one did so unnecessarily and knew it was a serious danger to his Faith, yet went anyway without a serious reason.

(12-25-2015, 06:19 PM)little_flower10 Wrote: The spiritual reality of the Novus Ordo as the Sacrifice is objectively good - we cannot say that the Sacrifice isn't. So we can honour God there.

You can just as well honor God in the Blessed Sacrament outside of the Mass. And one could just as well adore hosts consecrated by a priest who said Mass in the state of Mortal Sin. The reality of the Sacrament is objectively and innately Good -- it is Christ Himself, sacramentally present. If sacrilege was committed in the process, that has no effect on the reality of the Sacrament itself.

Thus, this element is not particular to the Novus Ordo, nor to any Mass at all. It is, in short, a red herring.

It is equivalent to saying that we must honor the element of Sacrifice in any Mass, be it the traditional Mass or a Black Mass. Or we must honor the Host placed in the monstrance for adoration or even when tossed in the trash for sacrilege.

Of course we must. But that's a bit of a tautology.

(12-25-2015, 06:19 PM)little_flower10 Wrote: As for the accidental elements, certainly it has to be significant that the intent is worship, contrary to a black Mass. As for the other things, such as lack of reverence, I think we could distinguish between things like clapping and the priest making up his own prayers. At some point it becomes scandalous to attend, at other times its clear from your behaviour that you don't intend to do what others do (clapping, CITH, etc). I don't know if I'm right, so this is more of a question than an argument.

The essential problems with the Novus Ordo Mass are not in these accidental elements, but in the very rite itself. I would object to the most reverent ad orientem Latin Novus Ordo Mass on the same grounds -- Protestantized theology behind the new rite. Clearly, though, this is not what the vast majority experience. That makes the situation even worse. It desacrilizes the whole rite as well, adding yet more emphasis to the elements the reformers Protestantized, and thus even more directly harms the Catholic faith of those who attend.
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Messages In This Thread
sin and Novus Ordo? - by little_flower10 - 12-25-2015, 02:35 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by DeoDuce - 12-25-2015, 03:47 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by Share Love - 12-25-2015, 03:50 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by Bourbon Apocalypse - 12-25-2015, 03:50 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by Leonhard - 12-25-2015, 04:08 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by Poche - 12-25-2015, 04:58 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by CaptCrunch73 - 12-25-2015, 06:23 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by formerbuddhist - 12-25-2015, 09:28 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by Renatus Frater - 12-25-2015, 10:22 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by GangGreen - 12-25-2015, 10:24 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by little_flower10 - 12-25-2015, 10:28 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by GangGreen - 12-25-2015, 10:39 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by little_flower10 - 12-25-2015, 10:43 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by little_flower10 - 12-25-2015, 10:47 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by little_flower10 - 12-25-2015, 10:59 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by formerbuddhist - 12-25-2015, 12:06 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by Renatus Frater - 12-25-2015, 01:03 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by little_flower10 - 12-25-2015, 01:13 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by little_flower10 - 12-25-2015, 01:26 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by ermy_law - 12-25-2015, 01:44 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by MagisterMusicae - 12-25-2015, 05:28 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by Renatus Frater - 12-25-2015, 05:35 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by little_flower10 - 12-25-2015, 06:19 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by MagisterMusicae - 12-27-2015, 12:05 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by MagisterMusicae - 12-27-2015, 12:32 AM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by little_flower10 - 12-27-2015, 04:17 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by MagisterMusicae - 12-28-2015, 12:55 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by Qoheleth - 12-28-2015, 02:00 PM
Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - by Qoheleth - 12-28-2015, 07:46 PM



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