Embarrassing question about marital activity
#11
As I recall from Fr. Ripperger's talks on this topic, husband to wife oral sex and/or digital stimulation are allowable as part of the act of intercourse, but penetration of the woman with something other than the male sex organ is not morally permissible.

He goes into detail about the purpose and complimentary of the male and female organs to explain this.

People should really consult with traditional priests about these and all moral questions. Our priests are there to help us.
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#12
I love the threads about what parts are allowed to go where.  LOL

I think Vox should chime in. She always has something witty and wise to say.
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#13
^ This is the least interesting thing about being Catholic. But it seems to draw the most questions!

It never would've occurred to me to ask these sorts of questions on an Internet forum, but if people are going to ask in sincerity, they deserve to receive accurate answers.
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#14
(01-11-2016, 11:01 PM)ermy_law Wrote: ^ This is the least interesting thing about being Catholic. But it seems to draw the most questions!

It never would've occurred to me to ask these sorts of questions on an Internet forum, but if people are going to ask in sincerity, they deserve to receive accurate answers.

It's just way easier to ask this kind of question on the internet than in person. My wife is literally petrified at the idea of asking our priest about this, so we'd rather just read and find out ourselves if this is ok.

(01-11-2016, 07:56 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: That said, if someone feels guilt about something perhaps there is a problem. It could be her conscience is not well formed, or it could be that such activity is somehow a near occasion of sin for her.  I think it is essential for a couple to discuss these things.

I'm thinking that she feels so guilty about doing this because she's told me that in the past she has masturbated several times, and this is something she's always felt so ashamed of and guilty about (she told me that she was worried this made her not a virgin, and she even cried to me about this). And any kind of direct stimulation of a similar sort even when it's done by her husband reminds her of this, and she sees the activities as virtually the same (she basically thinks this is illicit stimulation the same as masturbation). This is my theory though, but I'm pretty sure that's what's behind it because I know her very well.

(01-11-2016, 09:26 PM)ermy_law Wrote: As I recall from Fr. Ripperger's talks on this topic, husband to wife oral sex and/or digital stimulation are allowable as part of the act of intercourse, but penetration of the woman with something other than the male sex organ is not morally permissible.

He goes into detail about the purpose and complimentary of the male and female organs to explain this.

People should really consult with traditional priests about these and all moral questions. Our priests are there to help us.

She's seriously terrified about me asking our traditional priest about this.

I hope Fr. Ripperger is correct in that talk, because what we do is morally licit according to him (external stimulation of the wife). But my concern is that he doesn't really give citations, he just says "the theologians say this". St. Alphonsus apparently wrote that it was wrong to stimulate your wife to orgasm except by intercourse, and he cites him as his source for this. Alphonsus wrote: An autem, si vir se retrahat post seminationem, sed ante seminationem mulieris, possit ipsa statim tactibus se excitare, ut seminet? Ratio, quia semen mulieris non est necessarium ad generationem; item quia effusio illa mulieris, utpote separata, non fit una caro cum viro.

http://www.mocavo.co.uk/Saint-Alphonsus-...430807/308

So it doesn't seem as clear as a lot of people think. Maybe we're just worrying too much about this (and I realize this does sound kind of funny to ask about this and be worried about this), but it does sometimes seem difficult to figure out what we can do in the marital act, and I sure don't want to lead my wife into sin or anything.


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#15
If I recall correctly, the issue isn't stimulating your wife to orgasm during intercourse that is a problem, it is stimulating your wife to a certain type of orgasm that is "ejaculatory" that is problematic. I think that is what St. Alphonsus was discussing. If you're stimulating your wife during intercourse or before or afterward, I think you're doing something morally permissible (and morally laudable in that you are not being selfish during these acts). 

Whatever St. Alphonsus's opinion, one needs a more holistic view than just one father. So someone who has distilled the consensus of the fathers as Fr. Ripperger has done is important to listen to. I've heard the same thing from other priests, as well. So I am content that this is the consensus of the fathers and moral theology manuals.

I understand your hesitancy to ask a priest these sorts of questions. If I have questions like this, I'll usually ask after confession so that it's anonymous.
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#16
I feel like the "what can you do" question is so vague. I've read so many answers in various places that I don't know if there really is any true ruling. The Church itself is not very clear on these matters. The thing that I've found to be absolute  is that all sex acts must involve the man climaxing inside the woman. Other than that, things like types foreplay, use of objects, or whatever are so vague that I find it hard to really get a good answer.
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#17
(01-11-2016, 11:48 PM)ermy_law Wrote: If I recall correctly, the issue isn't stimulating your wife to orgasm during intercourse that is a problem, it is stimulating your wife to a certain type of orgasm that is "ejaculatory" that is problematic. I think that is what St. Alphonsus was discussing. If you're stimulating your wife during intercourse or before or afterward, I think you're doing something morally permissible (and morally laudable in that you are not being selfish during these acts). 

Whatever St. Alphonsus's opinion, one needs a more holistic view than just one father. So someone who has distilled the consensus of the fathers as Fr. Ripperger has done is important to listen to. I've heard the same thing from other priests, as well. So I am content that this is the consensus of the fathers and moral theology manuals.

I understand your hesitancy to ask a priest these sorts of questions. If I have questions like this, I'll usually ask after confession so that it's anonymous.

Oh, I didn't realize that St. Alphonsus was talking about something like that (my Latin really needs work, and I couldn't find a definition of that seminatio word). I didn't know there was such a thing as a female orgasm that was "ejaculatory", and that's definitely not something either of us were doing or had any knowledge of. I just want my wife to have normal satisfaction, so that we both can just cuddle and fall asleep. So I hope you're right about the consensus of the theologians.
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#18
(01-11-2016, 11:48 PM)ermy_law Wrote: If I recall correctly, the issue isn't stimulating your wife to orgasm during intercourse that is a problem, it is stimulating your wife to a certain type of orgasm that is "ejaculatory" that is problematic. I think that is what St. Alphonsus was discussing. If you're stimulating your wife during intercourse or before or afterward, I think you're doing something morally permissible (and morally laudable in that you are not being selfish during these acts). 

Whatever St. Alphonsus's opinion, one needs a more holistic view than just one father. So someone who has distilled the consensus of the fathers as Fr. Ripperger has done is important to listen to. I've heard the same thing from other priests, as well. So I am content that this is the consensus of the fathers and moral theology manuals.

I understand your hesitancy to ask a priest these sorts of questions. If I have questions like this, I'll usually ask after confession so that it's anonymous.
Interesting. I wonder how St. Alphonsus would suggest a person produce one kind of orgasm and not the other.
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#19
My hunch is that the female orgasm was a mystery to St. Alphonsus.  And that is why I don't think that it is a good idea to search out the primary sources of the fathers on these questions. One needs to consult a priest or other moral theologian who has distilled the ideas of the fathers and the manuals and can apply the principles of those sources to the realities and understandings of our times.

I do hope that everyone will listen to Fr. Ripperger in the talk I posted earlier since I recall that he addresses this very topic. Someone mentioned earlier that the Church's teaching on these things is vague. In fact, the teachings are not vague -- I posted a 45 minute talk that goes into detail about these teachings. We have a tendency to see vagueness as an excuse to license. We should not trust ourselves and our judgment, especially in this area since it acts so directly on our concupiscence.

One can imagine the difficulties of priests providing these teachings, though. This area of the Church's moral teaching cannot be discussed in sermons since the audiences are both men and women and children are present. That is why one simply must consult privately with the priests in order to receive the teaching or raise particular questions. Again, the teachings are not vague, but we must seek them out. Thankfully, in our time, we have the internet, so we have access to the talks of theologians that we can trust, like Fr. Ripperger.
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#20
We know female orgasm was not a mystery to St. Augustine, and he is famous for his pessimism regarding sexual desire (much more than St. Alphonsus, who said stimulation can be justified). So, not sure how we can simply say “old” moral law is a priestly fabrication—that they simply didn't knew any better. There is such a thing as chastity in marriage, which is not abstinence from sexual intercourse.

I think casti connubii (which means precisely the chaste wedlock) remembers a point that every single moralist and Father knew (and I don't doubt many knew from experience, as there is such a thing as a convert): to simply indulge every sinful desire will only lead you to further, more perverse desires.

I'm not saying to anyone to not do this or that, but one should think before dismissing Catholic traditional morality as the product of a by-gone era (and yes, this is modernism).
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