Why have some post-Vatican II Popes called for a new world order?
#11
(01-14-2016, 12:15 PM)Share Love Wrote:
(01-14-2016, 12:00 PM)J Michael Wrote: Were there any pre-Vatican II pontiffs who called for a new world order, specifically using that terminology?

While I was gathering the references for those quotes I mentioned, one website mentioned Pope Pius XII with the post-Vatican II Popes, but in Pope Pius XII's case, he didn't specifically say "new world order," instead mentioning something along the lines of a supra-national mission.

Maybe I've just been around too much conspiracy theory stuff around the term, but it just seems odd to me that a Pope would use the term "new world order."

Yes, "new world order" does have a lot of negative and conspiratorial connotations--especially since the 1950's and 1960's onward.  The Church (however you choose to define that) has, I believe, always had a "supra-national" or world mission.  To start referring to it as a "new world order", especially given all the rumors (if indeed they are just rumors!) of a masonic mafia in the Vatican that reaches to the highest levels, does really increase the stench level, imnsho.
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#12
(01-14-2016, 11:09 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: The current world order is pretty bad if you look around. The concept of a new world order is neutral--you can have a bad new world order or a good new world order.  It depends on how things are ordered.  If the new order is ordered according to truth, justice, and charity, then it will be a good one.  I think the Popes are calling for us to work toward such a good one.

The same can be said about international government.  There's nothing per se wrong with a "one world government" provided it governed according to truth and justice, and the principle of subsidiarity, in order to promote the true common good. I believe this was seen in some eras as the ideal (one God and therefore one Pope and one Emperor). A one world government could also be bad, but it would be bad because it violates the principles above, not simply because it is an international government.

You beat me to this :)

A one world government, in and of itself, is neither good nor bad.  It depends on its purpose.  Opposition to a one world government is something made popular by the Rapture hystericals.  Catholics should not have a problem with it per se.  Catholics believe that the faith is for all of humanity, and that we all share in the curse of Adam, so if we are really all one big, disordered family, and we all are supposed to submit to the already one-world ecclesial government of the Catholic Church, and Catholics have no problem with that head also having temporal leadership (Latin Catholics at least), then there is no reason Catholics should be opposed to a one world government in principle.
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#13
(01-14-2016, 12:00 PM)J Michael Wrote: Were there any pre-Vatican II pontiffs who called for a new world order, specifically using that terminology?

Put it in context.  For the most part, until the Reformation and Liberal revolutions, the order was pretty good.  Popes fought against that new order and to preserve the old. Of course they did not call for a new world order when they wanted to keep the old one. However, a lot was torn down during WWI and WWII and a new order needed to come out of the ashes.  The Church obviously wanted to influence that new order, and when that order didn't start to measure up, the Church called for a new ordering based on what is good.

So you won't see that kind of language until Pius XII and John XXIII, because until then the current or old order was preferable to what was put forth as new. 

But Pius XII was the first modern Pope to call for a new one world government.

Pius XII Wrote:62. The decisions already published by international commissions permit one to conclude that an essential point in any future international arrangement would be the formation of an organ for the maintenance of peace, of an organ invested by common consent with supreme power to whose office it would also pertain to smother in its germinal state any threat of isolated or collective aggression.

He was even more clear in his address to an organization of those supporting global confederation.  Some excerpts I could find in English:

Pius XII Wrote:Your movement, Gentlemen, has the task of creating an effective political organization of the world. There is nothing more in keeping with the traditional doctrines of the Church, or better adapted to her teachings on the rightful or unjust war, especially in the present world situation. An organization of this nature must, therefore, be set up.
----
You are of the opinion that the political world organization needs to take a federal shape in order to be effective. If you mean by this that it needs to be released from mechanical leveling down then you thereby are as well in accordance with the principles of social and political life as they are established and advocated by the Church.
----
[The future political world organization] will only exercise effective authority to the degree in which it preserves and fosters the independent existence of a healthy human community whose members jointly participate in advancing the welfare of the whole of humanity.
---
You have the courage to give yourself to this cause. We congratulate you. We would express to you Our wishes for your entire success and with all Our heart We will pray to God to grant you His wisdom and help in the performance of your task.
---
The spirit of federalism, the future organization of the world in political respect, will play an important role. In the same measure it safeguards the natural and healthy life of human communities in bringing about the greatest welfare of all mankind. I wish you great success in your labor and God give you light and assistance.

The whole thing is in French in the Acts of the Apostolic See. See page 278 here:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/docume...51-ocr.pdf

This made headlines at the time, such as "Pope Urges One Government:"
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=elMVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1uUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2054,2600221&dq=pope+pius+world+federalism&hl=en
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#14
(01-14-2016, 12:32 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(01-14-2016, 12:00 PM)J Michael Wrote: Were there any pre-Vatican II pontiffs who called for a new world order, specifically using that terminology?

Put it in context.  For the most part, until the Reformation and Liberal revolutions, the order was pretty good.  Popes fought against that new order and to preserve the old. Of course they did not call for a new world order when they wanted to keep the old one. However, a lot was torn down during WWI and WWII and a new order needed to come out of the ashes.  The Church obviously wanted to influence that new order, and when that order didn't start to measure up, the Church called for a new ordering based on what is good.

So you won't see that kind of language until Pius XII and John XXIII, because until then the current or old order was preferable to what was put forth as new. 

But Pius XII was the first modern Pope to call for a new one world government.

Pius XII Wrote:62. The decisions already published by international commissions permit one to conclude that an essential point in any future international arrangement would be the formation of an organ for the maintenance of peace, of an organ invested by common consent with supreme power to whose office it would also pertain to smother in its germinal state any threat of isolated or collective aggression.

He was even more clear in his address to an organization of those supporting global confederation.  Some excerpts I could find in English:

Pius XII Wrote:Your movement, Gentlemen, has the task of creating an effective political organization of the world. There is nothing more in keeping with the traditional doctrines of the Church, or better adapted to her teachings on the rightful or unjust war, especially in the present world situation. An organization of this nature must, therefore, be set up.
----
You are of the opinion that the political world organization needs to take a federal shape in order to be effective. If you mean by this that it needs to be released from mechanical leveling down then you thereby are as well in accordance with the principles of social and political life as they are established and advocated by the Church.
----
[The future political world organization] will only exercise effective authority to the degree in which it preserves and fosters the independent existence of a healthy human community whose members jointly participate in advancing the welfare of the whole of humanity.
---
You have the courage to give yourself to this cause. We congratulate you. We would express to you Our wishes for your entire success and with all Our heart We will pray to God to grant you His wisdom and help in the performance of your task.
---
The spirit of federalism, the future organization of the world in political respect, will play an important role. In the same measure it safeguards the natural and healthy life of human communities in bringing about the greatest welfare of all mankind. I wish you great success in your labor and God give you light and assistance.

The whole thing is in French in the Acts of the Apostolic See. See page 278 here:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/docume...51-ocr.pdf

This made headlines at the time, such as "Pope Urges One Government:"
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=elMVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1uUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2054,2600221&dq=pope+pius+world+federalism&hl=en

Okay...there's context and there's perspective.  I agree, for the most part, with your comments on the context of it.  But, from a spiritual perspective when has the order of the world been, since the Fall, anything but disastrous??  And when, this side of the Parousia, will it be anything other than that??

Was Pope Pius XII referring to a one world government ala the U.N.?  Heaven forbid!  We've seen how well that's worked out! :eyeroll: :eyeroll:
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#15
(01-14-2016, 12:30 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(01-14-2016, 11:09 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: The current world order is pretty bad if you look around. The concept of a new world order is neutral--you can have a bad new world order or a good new world order.  It depends on how things are ordered.  If the new order is ordered according to truth, justice, and charity, then it will be a good one.  I think the Popes are calling for us to work toward such a good one.

The same can be said about international government.  There's nothing per se wrong with a "one world government" provided it governed according to truth and justice, and the principle of subsidiarity, in order to promote the true common good. I believe this was seen in some eras as the ideal (one God and therefore one Pope and one Emperor). A one world government could also be bad, but it would be bad because it violates the principles above, not simply because it is an international government.

You beat me to this :)

A one world government, in and of itself, is neither good nor bad.  It depends on its purpose.  Opposition to a one world government is something made popular by the Rapture hystericals.  Catholics should not have a problem with it per se.  Catholics believe that the faith is for all of humanity, and that we all share in the curse of Adam, so if we are really all one big, disordered family, and we all are supposed to submit to the already one-world ecclesial government of the Catholic Church, and Catholics have no problem with that head also having temporal leadership (Latin Catholics at least), then there is no reason Catholics should be opposed to a one world government in principle.

Sure glad you qualified that!!!! :grin: :grin:
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