Those who resist change are obstinate rebels and idolaters and are guilty of "di
#11
(01-18-2016, 01:55 PM)Qoheleth Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 12:55 PM)richgr Wrote: He's saying something good on the one hand: openness to the inspirations of the Holy Ghost, which may surprise us at times, and that a closed heart will drive away God's grace, both individually and communally.

However, his application to matters of tradition needs a lot of work. It remains quite unclear: who discerns? how shall we discern properly? what are the mechanisms to protect or allow for proper discernment? what is the scope of this openness, and what is the force of various elements of tradition?

One can just as easily apply the accusations of divination, obstinacy, and idolatry to those who make "change" their god and refuse to "discern" the movements of the Holy Ghost Who wishes to protect tradition (surprising as it may be to some!), so aside from the obvious intended rhetorical effect, I don't see how these kinds of remarks are actually edifying unfortunately.


The Popes track record speaks for itself.  What he says and what he does is not Catholic.  If Catholics  who  allegedly take the FAITH seriously will keep making excuses for the inexcusable , more than likely, they
will be directly responsible  for a longer duration back to sanity and a return to a True Catholic Church.

A track record in which when he was Cardinal Bergoglio he vouched for the SSPX aat the Argentine immigration when they (the SSPX) had problems?
A track record which reaches out to the SSPX to enable them to become regularized more easily?
A track record in which during the year of mercy the confessions heard by the SSPX priests are considered valid? (I think this lets some air out of the tires of those who like to complain about them.)
??? ??? ???
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#12
I think all of this nonsense coming from the Vatican these is a big distraction, to get us busy talking and debating and doubting, instead of praying, doing good works and evangelizing. It's also undoubtedly related to the media today. We see this constant bombardment of fragmented thoughts and mini-scandals everywhere in the public sphere. The Internet is the cause. It's not as if there was less to talk and 'tweet' about the past, people just didn't have the means and therefore neither the desire to do so.

I think it's foolish to be continued to be surprised by anything Francis says or does at this point. It's clear that something is seriously wrong in the Church today. It's sad that we a have a pope who continues to add the problem, rather than solve it, but what can we do?
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#13
(01-19-2016, 05:06 AM)xandratax Wrote: I think all of this nonsense coming from the Vatican these is a big distraction, to get us busy talking and debating and doubting, instead of praying, doing good works and evangelizing. It's also undoubtedly related to the media today. We see this constant bombardment of fragmented thoughts and mini-scandals everywhere in the public sphere. The Internet is the cause. It's not as if there was less to talk and 'tweet' about the past, people just didn't have the means and therefore neither the desire to do so.

I think it's foolish to be continued to be surprised by anything Francis says or does at this point. It's clear that something is seriously wrong in the Church today. It's sad that we a have a pope who continues to add the problem, rather than solve it, but what can we do?

That's exactly what I have been feeling.  Stop being a victim of sensational interpretations of current events!  Sometimes the pope seems to know what to say and other times he doesn't.  He is like most of the leaders in Europe and America:  they don't really know what the root problems of our civilization are.  They don't really have the skills to fix them either.

Being in a constant state of shock and appall is not going to help you or anybody else.  When the pope starts advocating for the arrest and social oppression of people who don't agree with him, then I'll be concerned.

That's the way bishops used to take care of their opponents.  Aren't you glad you don't live in those good old days???
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#14
(01-19-2016, 04:56 AM)Poche Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 01:55 PM)Qoheleth Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 12:55 PM)richgr Wrote: He's saying something good on the one hand: openness to the inspirations of the Holy Ghost, which may surprise us at times, and that a closed heart will drive away God's grace, both individually and communally.

However, his application to matters of tradition needs a lot of work. It remains quite unclear: who discerns? how shall we discern properly? what are the mechanisms to protect or allow for proper discernment? what is the scope of this openness, and what is the force of various elements of tradition?

One can just as easily apply the accusations of divination, obstinacy, and idolatry to those who make "change" their god and refuse to "discern" the movements of the Holy Ghost Who wishes to protect tradition (surprising as it may be to some!), so aside from the obvious intended rhetorical effect, I don't see how these kinds of remarks are actually edifying unfortunately.


The Popes track record speaks for itself.  What he says and what he does is not Catholic.  If Catholics  who  allegedly take the FAITH seriously will keep making excuses for the inexcusable , more than likely, they
will be directly responsible  for a longer duration back to sanity and a return to a True Catholic Church.

A track record in which when he was Cardinal Bergoglio he vouched for the SSPX aat the Argentine immigration when they (the SSPX) had problems?
A track record which reaches out to the SSPX to enable them to become regularized more easily?
A track record in which during the year of mercy the confessions heard by the SSPX priests are considered valid? (I think this lets some air out of the tires of those who like to complain about them.)
??? ??? ???

I respectfully disagree with you that these examples serve to prove your point.  Francis is precisely the sort of person who would do these things.  He didn't do them because he agrees with the SSPX.  He did them because doctrinal consistency and consistency in the Church's legal structures are rather meaningless to him.  While, in this limited circumstance, his actions happen to accrue to the benefit of the SSPX's associated laity, it is symptomatic of the very problem with Francis -- his inconsistency and lack of theological acumen.  Recall that when he "regularized" the SSPX for confessions during this year, he didn't do so in a legally proper way -- he didn't even let the SSPX know in advance. 

He acts and speaks without thinking of the consequences.  Someone who does that is likely to hit upon something that an individual of whatever stripe might fancy just by sheer volume of words and actions. 
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#15
(01-19-2016, 04:41 PM)ermy_law Wrote:
(01-19-2016, 04:56 AM)Poche Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 01:55 PM)Qoheleth Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 12:55 PM)richgr Wrote: He's saying something good on the one hand: openness to the inspirations of the Holy Ghost, which may surprise us at times, and that a closed heart will drive away God's grace, both individually and communally.

However, his application to matters of tradition needs a lot of work. It remains quite unclear: who discerns? how shall we discern properly? what are the mechanisms to protect or allow for proper discernment? what is the scope of this openness, and what is the force of various elements of tradition?

One can just as easily apply the accusations of divination, obstinacy, and idolatry to those who make "change" their god and refuse to "discern" the movements of the Holy Ghost Who wishes to protect tradition (surprising as it may be to some!), so aside from the obvious intended rhetorical effect, I don't see how these kinds of remarks are actually edifying unfortunately.


The Popes track record speaks for itself.  What he says and what he does is not Catholic.  If Catholics  who  allegedly take the FAITH seriously will keep making excuses for the inexcusable , more than likely, they
will be directly responsible  for a longer duration back to sanity and a return to a True Catholic Church.

A track record in which when he was Cardinal Bergoglio he vouched for the SSPX aat the Argentine immigration when they (the SSPX) had problems?
A track record which reaches out to the SSPX to enable them to become regularized more easily?
A track record in which during the year of mercy the confessions heard by the SSPX priests are considered valid? (I think this lets some air out of the tires of those who like to complain about them.)
??? ??? ???

I respectfully disagree with you that these examples serve to prove your point.  Francis is precisely the sort of person who would do these things.  He didn't do them because he agrees with the SSPX.  He did them because doctrinal consistency and consistency in the Church's legal structures are rather meaningless to him.  While, in this limited circumstance, his actions happen to accrue to the benefit of the SSPX's associated laity, it is symptomatic of the very problem with Francis -- his inconsistency and lack of theological acumen.  Recall that when he "regularized" the SSPX for confessions during this year, he didn't do so in a legally proper way -- he didn't even let the SSPX know in advance. 

He acts and speaks without thinking of the consequences.  Someone who does that is likely to hit upon something that an individual of whatever stripe might fancy just by sheer volume of words and actions.

Funny you should talk about Pope Francis acting in the best interests of the people associated with the SSPX and no he used extra-legal means to serve them. Jesus had the same idea about man made legal restrictions. I think Pope Francis is thinking about the consequences of becoming confused with the discipline of the Church, which can be changed from time to time, and the Divine law, which can never be changed.
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#16
Can somebody
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#17
It's funny, I was over my parents house and the topic of the pope came up. My father flat out says "This pope is an idiot, I think he's lost his mind." There was nothing I could say to defend him  :LOL:.
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