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#11
There is no difficulty about the spiritual and material interacting. The idea that the two can't interact is only because of Cartesian dualism. If that dualism is true, then God could not have even created a material world because He is spiritual. Angels interact with the physical world or at least have in the past. Our soul exerts itself by controlling our body. Relations (immaterial mode of being that Aristotle called an accident in his categories) connect all objects while at the same time differentiating them, down to the very foundations of how the world works: the relations between matter and form or essence and existence for example. Causality is entirely a mix of material interaction and immaterial relations.

But asking how precisely the two interact is, in my mind, asking how gravity exerts its force on physical objects even though we can't see it.
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#12
(02-04-2016, 01:15 AM)richgr Wrote: There is no difficulty about the spiritual and material interacting. The idea that the two can't interact is only because of Cartesian dualism. If that dualism is true, then God could not have even created a material world because He is spiritual. Angels interact with the physical world or at least have in the past. Our soul exerts itself by controlling our body. Relations (immaterial mode of being that Aristotle called an accident in his categories) connect all objects while at the same time differentiating them, down to the very foundations of how the world works: the relations between matter and form or essence and existence for example. Causality is entirely a mix of material interaction and immaterial relations.

But asking how precisely the two interact is, in my mind, asking how gravity exerts its force on physical objects even though we can't see it.

This exactly.
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#13
(02-04-2016, 01:15 AM)richgr Wrote: There is no difficulty about the spiritual and material interacting. The idea that the two can't interact is only because of Cartesian dualism. If that dualism is true, then God could not have even created a material world because He is spiritual. Angels interact with the physical world or at least have in the past. Our soul exerts itself by controlling our body. Relations (immaterial mode of being that Aristotle called an accident in his categories) connect all objects while at the same time differentiating them, down to the very foundations of how the world works: the relations between matter and form or essence and existence for example. Causality is entirely a mix of material interaction and immaterial relations.

But asking how precisely the two interact is, in my mind, asking how gravity exerts its force on physical objects even though we can't see it.

so what exactly is so wrong about asking or about seeking - seems you gave up a while ago - go seek and seek again or stay awhile and at last find out to your satisfaction and be surprised - wincam
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#14

What's your native language wincam?



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#15
stick with the well understood topic - twinc
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#16
He answered the question as best as its gonna be answered, and frankly its not well understood.
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#17
(02-04-2016, 08:10 PM)Dominicus Wrote: He answered the question as best as its gonna be answered, and frankly its not well understood.

well then here it is - do your best to try and refute and rebut - the great mistake is to accept that our world as it  now is  as it was when it was first created as very good = spiritual not physical and material which was a result of the Fall from spiritual to material which in itself is an illusion/delusion/deception for in fact there is no matter for one of the greatest if not the greatest achievement of science was the dematerialisation of matter even though it now seems that some humpty dumpty scientists are trying to put it together again - there is no duality there is only mind for nothing can exist outside  of mind not even mind itself - twinc 
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#18
Duality is necessary in the created order. God alone has no duality in His nature but even within the divine nature are three Persons. This gets down to the fact that relation is precisely what unites and distinguishes without adding more being to God.

In creation, if there is no distinctions whatsoever, no duality, then creation is God.

But in fact, we know that not everything is mind, nor is everything matter. The problem with modern science's notion of matter is that it is too specifically Cartesian and Newtonian and is quite different from how Aristotle and Aquinas talk about matter. The Cartesian idea of matter is wrong, which as you point out, scientists are discovering. But we shouldn't swing to the opposite extreme and say that all is mind. Perennial philosophy has already shown that there are insurmountable problems to that idea.

Relation allows us to understand that in creation there is one and many, distinctions, dualities, etc. It is only the modern mind that believes that the spiritual and material cannot interact because the modern mind denies the reality of relations, following the influence of Ockham and Protestantism afterwards.
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#19
I must compliment young Dominicus for a wisdom beyond his years.

I think that ole twinc is up to his usual. And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that twinc and wincam are one and the same. He (or they) will not be influenced by any reasonable argument... their purpose is merely to sow doubt and discord.

Those that scoff at or despise a Cartesian notion of location (a position can be defined relative to other objects or definable points) should never ever use a road map or GPS. ("Philosophical" fancies of Descartes do not invalidate that a position can be described relative to other things).

Those that scoff at or despise "Newtonian" physics (gravity, inertia and all that) should drop themselves off a tall building and never use a motor car with an engine or brakes and, most certainly, never believe that an aeroplane could fly.

I can hardly contain my distain for "Perennialist" Luddites.

Once again, my compliments to Dominicus.
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#20
Wow, thank you Oldavid, though I don't think it was anything special, I just called up what came to mind.

Sec/Treas took care of the "Wincam" account over on another of his threads after he got called out by someone else for having two accounts. Sure sign of a troll evidently.
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