Criticizing the Pope
#51
This part of St. Francis de Sales' Catholic Controversy is a really great summary of papal authority including when the Pope can err and, when he does, how he should be criticized.
http://www.goodcatholicbooks.org/francis...HAPTER_XIV

Essentially he can err in matters of "human fact" and "extra cathedram, outside the chair of Peter, that is, as a private individual, by writings and bad example." When he does, he can be criticized "with all reverence, submission, and discretion," but not with " invectives, railings, outrages," or "calumnies, insults, detraction, ridicule, and buffoonery."  Anyway, the whole thing is a good read on papal authority, especially papal infallibility.

It's good to remember too that when speaking of others' sins and failings we should have a just reason.  It's one thing if your neighbor witnesses or has knowledge of some bad word or deed of another and may be scandalized (ie may be led to sin) and you point out the sinfulness of that bad word or deed to save the other from sin.  It's another just to complain about that person's sin to your neighbor just so they know the person is sinful or whatever.

We live in a unique situation where high profile figures like the Pope have their every word and action broadcast around the world.  The benefit of a good example is magnified, but so is the harm of a bad one.  We also have the means to communicate far and wide--our "neighbor" is not just in our town anymore.  I think in some ways we're still figuring out how these principles are best put into action given these circumstances, but suffice it to say a just criticism can be more widespread if the reason for it is also more widespread.
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#52
Hey Vox,

Appreciate the thoughtful reply.

Looks like we're pretty much on the same page.  Just to clarify, I didn't say it was wrong to be critical of the Holy Father, but rather concerned that the snark level was getting out of hand (not sure there should be even a modicum of snark, really) .

I'd never call for any one to be banned either... I just eventually avoid whatever they post.  I've been around enough forums to know that it only takes a couple of knuckleheads to poison the well and keep others from participating.  I've seen it on other forums many times.  No, my letting go of F.E. has more to do with lack of time and being wary of forums as a place to spend gobs of time.  Having spent years on another forum, I've now realized what a black hole of time and energy it was and that so called "friends" never really were.  So if I feel a forum is getting overly negative, i'm not going to try to change its polarity because there are just too many more positive options to take its place.  I just wanted to share what I (and as I've discovered others) have been observing lately.  Hope that makes sense.

My "gladly" suffering was wink at Colossians 1:24 when Paul spoke of rejoicing in his sufferings.  You're right, there's nothing to be glad about the Holy Father's...  well whatever one may call them, but I believe suffering them discreetly and patiently is honorable.  These errors or mistakes or whatever one pleases to label them, can be wrongly used as scandalous fodder which could cause others to fall into despair (as I've seen).  That was all I was driving at.  Sorry if I caused confusion.

You work very hard on this site and I truly appreciate your dedication.  I've taken away some good info from this place and will return form time to time for  more on the main site.  Thank you!

BTW -  I'd love for you to write out some awesome, well researched, short essays from a Traditional Catholics point of view on today's social ills.  Then provided a link to the essays that could be dropped in news comment threads for others to click on to find out what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches about the topic.  For example, when Huff Post pumps out yet another article on how the Church needs to change it's position on same sex marriage, it would be great for a Fishie to drop a link in the comment section for the haters or passer-byes to read the Truth about the Church and SS attraction and or it's stand on marriage.  Just a thought.

OH!  and one last push for you and others to watch that vid.  It also covers why Pope Francis looks at the Traditionalists the way he does.  Highly recommended.

Keep Your Powder Dry...

R&H 
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#53
Orrite! you prissy mob! There's only one reason I can see that any of you would be shy about naming and blaming me for kicking your "Sacred Cows"... that is to preserve your status as "politically correct" "nice guys" according to the rules of "nice".

Up to now the Enemy has tried just about every variation of oppression, aggression and subterfuge with limited  and temporary success. However, now he is poised to achieve the practically total obliteration of the Church of Truth and Virtue by drowning it in the cesspit of the Church of Nice.

The Great Mother's Divine Boy said " By their fruits (or works) you will know them". He did not say that you need to be a Cannon Lawyer to recognise a bad apple even if it's on top of the heap. You only need to know what a good apple looks like to make that assessment.

I have been banned from several "Catholic" forums for political incorrectness and one more will not hurt me anywhere near as much as being roasted to death over a slow fire, or similar, that many saints have endured because they wouldn't do the pragmatically correct or "clever" thing... "be nice".  The doings and sayings of many saints about the heretics and their heresies have been edited out of the "Church of Nice" so that as far as the "nice guys" know they don't exist.

Jesus said how many swords do you have? and they replied, two, and He said that is enough.

Obviously, I don't know who is trying to reduce this forum into a mere "gossip column" by relegating such topics as "philosophy and theology" to the Archives, but I think that such is almost guaranteed to ensure that any "casual observer" will be immediately disinterested.

Anyhow, I don't have a dog in this fight... but I'm not addicted to "nice guy" ego-politics.
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#54
(03-06-2016, 09:11 AM)Oldavid Wrote: Orrite! you prissy mob! There's only one reason I can see that any of you would be shy about naming and blaming me for kicking your "Sacred Cows"... that is to preserve your status as "politically correct" "nice guys" according to the rules of "nice".

Up to now the Enemy has tried just about every variation of oppression, aggression and subterfuge with limited  and temporary success. However, now he is poised to achieve the practically total obliteration of the Church of Truth and Virtue by drowning it in the cesspit of the Church of Nice.

The Great Mother's Divine Boy said " By their fruits (or works) you will know them". He did not say that you need to be a Cannon Lawyer to recognise a bad apple even if it's on top of the heap. You only need to know what a good apple looks like to make that assessment.

I have been banned from several "Catholic" forums for political incorrectness and one more will not hurt me anywhere near as much as being roasted to death over a slow fire, or similar, that many saints have endured because they wouldn't do the pragmatically correct or "clever" thing... "be nice".  The doings and sayings of many saints about the heretics and their heresies have been edited out of the "Church of Nice" so that as far as the "nice guys" know they don't exist.

Jesus said how many swords do you have? and they replied, two, and He said that is enough.

Obviously, I don't know who is trying to reduce this forum into a mere "gossip column" by relegating such topics as "philosophy and theology" to the Archives, but I think that such is almost guaranteed to ensure that any "casual observer" will be immediately disinterested.

Anyhow, I don't have a dog in this fight... but I'm not addicted to "nice guy" ego-politics.

I highly doubt that being banned from CAF (If you haven't been banned from CAF at least once, you might not be a Catholic) is the equivalence of being martyred like the saints.

However I agree being "nice" is for cowards...a French root-word for a fool who cannot make a decision.
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#55
(03-06-2016, 10:06 AM)austenbosten Wrote: I highly doubt that being banned from CAF (If you haven't been banned from CAF at least once, you might not be a Catholic) is the equivalence of being martyred like the saints.

However I agree being "nice" is for cowards...a French root-word for a fool who cannot make a decision.
No. I've never been to, or been banned from, CAF.
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#56
(03-06-2016, 09:11 AM)Oldavid Wrote: Orrite! you prissy mob! There's only one reason I can see that any of you would be shy about naming and blaming me for kicking your "Sacred Cows"... that is to preserve your status as "politically correct" "nice guys" according to the rules of "nice".

(snip

You're conflating "nice" and "politically correct" on the one hand, with respectful, charitable, and prudent on the other. Nothing in that latter group precludes criticizing what Pope Francis does.


Quote:Obviously, I don't know who is trying to reduce this forum into a mere "gossip column" by relegating such topics as "philosophy and theology" to the Archives, but I think that such is almost guaranteed to ensure that any "casual observer" will be immediately disinterested.

Anyhow, I don't have a dog in this fight... but I'm not addicted to "nice guy" ego-politics.

Those categories have been archived, with their most recent posts being moved here, so the things discussed in those sub-fora would be discussed here, in this one, instead. Too many people were asking basic Catholic questions in the philosophy/theology sub-forum that would better be asked here, and lots of things were posted in the FSSP/SSPX/Etc sub-forum that no one looked at because they were there instead of here. Anything involving Catholic theology and philosophy, or discussions about the FSSP/SSPX divide can obviously be discussed here in a sub-forum broadly named "Catholicism."

The more sub-fora a forum has, the more threads people (including me) miss out on, the more confusing it is, and the more I have to spend time moving threads that are posted in the wrong place. That's how it works. And it's bad enough having to modify posts to remove the ALL CAPS subject lines that are the bane of my existence.

So, to wit, if you want to discuss grand philosophical questions pertaining to Catholicism, you can still do it. You'd just do it here. Why would that be a problem?

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#57
Shall I assume, then, that criticising the Pope is roughly equivalent to criticising the forum owner?

Anyhow, just sticking to criticising the forum owner for a bit; fora is a Latin plural for forum. In English the plural is forums.
(03-06-2016, 12:13 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: You're conflating "nice" and "politically correct" on the one hand, with respectful, charitable, and prudent on the other. Nothing in that latter group precludes criticizing what Pope Francis does.
You betcha, Madam, I haven't even begun to equate "respectful, charitable, and prudent" with subservient, self-interest and extravagant expectations.

Pope Francis is, at best, an ignorant fool. He seems to think that Truth and Virtue are whatever is convenient to the constantly evolving fashions of detached-from-logic hedonistic convenience.

Just to make a "pedantic" point; "Virtue" is that which makes a Man (including woMan) essentially different (at least potentially) from brutes and beasts.

"Truth" is that what IS... entirely independent of any subjective appreciation. No " consensus" of half-educated smart-arses can change a smidgin of physical reality.

I suggest that "grand philosophical questions" don't exist in the world of commonplace "everyone knows".
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#58
(03-02-2016, 07:37 PM)Trad Catholic27 Wrote: Since I am the person who sent the message.

I feel that it's better if I explain what I mean for me personally I feel that calling the Holy Father Francis a heretic or something uncharitable is uncalled for.

The Saint's who did criticize the Holy Father made sure to show proper respect for His Office.

There are certain things that Pope Francis has done or spoken that I don't agree with but I don't talk about it with people.

I feel that the liberal media often give him loaded questions to make him seem unorthodox because that's their agenda to scandalize Faithful Catholics into leaving the Faith
We used to have this saying in the military -- it always depends! It depends on your audience, topic, subject. Would I tell a brand new Catholic that Francis is a raging heretic that needs to be deposed ASAP? Of course not. Would I say that on Fisheaters, a traditional pseudonymous Catholic forum? Absolutely. Prudence is key.
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#59
(03-06-2016, 01:15 PM)Oldavid Wrote: Shall I assume, then, that criticising the Pope is roughly equivalent to criticising the forum owner?

No, not roughly.

Quote: Anyhow, just sticking to criticising the forum owner for a bit; fora is a Latin plural for forum. In English the plural is forums.


Not according to Merriam-Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forum

Quote: You betcha, Madam, I haven't even begun to equate "respectful, charitable, and prudent" with subservient, self-interest and extravagant expectations.

Pope Francis is, at best, an ignorant fool. He seems to think that Truth and Virtue are whatever is convenient to the constantly evolving fashions of detached-from-logic hedonistic convenience.

Just to make a "pedantic" point; "Virtue" is that which makes a Man (including woMan) essentially different (at least potentially) from brutes and beasts.

So should we rename the virtues to read like this?

The Theological Virtues: Faith, Hope, and Self-interest

The Cardinal Virtues: Having Extravagant Expectations, Justice with no mercy, Fortitude, Orneriness

The Virtues Contrary to the Capital Sins: Telling-it-like-it-is-with-no-prudence-or-care-about-the-souls-harmed-even-if-telling-it-like-it-is-in-a-different-way-could-achieve-the-effect-of-enlightening-others-without-turning-them-off, Curmudgeonliness, Bitterness, Outrage, Intemperance, Subservience, and Diligence

Whatever Pope Francis thinks and however he fails (which, once again, I am fine with people respectfully critizing, as I've said all along in this thread), the virtues are the virtues, and we're not let off the hook in trying to attain them because we have a confusing, weak, imprudent Pope who seems to lack some of those virtues himself. Two wrongs don't make a right.


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#60
Is there anyone remembering about the trad french "Contre Réforme Catholique" http://crc-internet.org/ and http://crc-resurrection.org/ (in french) founded by the late Abbé de Nantes"?
It is emblematic about how things are going in the postconciliar Church.
This man dared to challenge the pope Paul VI in sending him the famous "Liber accusationis in Paulum Sextum" wherein he listed all the heresies uttered by the Pope, which motivated his bishop to suspend him.
Then he appealed against his bishop at a canonical court in Rome.
His case NEVER was heard until he died a few years ago.
Here is everyone may criticize the Pope: In vain.
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