Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!
#11
(03-19-2016, 12:28 PM)austenbosten Wrote: With all due respect Pope Francis....why bother being Catholic then?

:eyeroll:

Ha!  Great question, isn't it? 
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#12
(03-19-2016, 04:07 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(03-19-2016, 12:28 PM)austenbosten Wrote: With all due respect Pope Francis....why bother being Catholic then?

:eyeroll:

Ha!  Great question, isn't it?

To whom much is given, much is required.

I think it goes to spiritual pride if one is angered at the idea of God granting His mercy to a benevolent but ignorant person.  The Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard comes to mind. If God wants to save a non-Catholic, what's it to us? He can do as He pleases.

We're Catholic because we know Catholicism is true, that it's the most perfect way to worship God, that that's where His Sacraments are, that if everyone were to be evangelized then we'd have sane, orderly societies based on the True, Good, and Beautiful, etc.

We spread the Gospel because we're commanded to, because it's true, because it's beautiful and brings peace, and because it leads to those aforementioned orderly, sane societies.

But in the end, Christ is King and can save whom He wants.

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#13
(03-19-2016, 05:03 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-19-2016, 04:07 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(03-19-2016, 12:28 PM)austenbosten Wrote: With all due respect Pope Francis....why bother being Catholic then?

:eyeroll:

Ha!  Great question, isn't it?

To whom much is given, much is required.

I think it goes to spiritual pride if one is angered at the idea of God granting His mercy to a benevolent but ignorant person.  The Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard comes to mind. If God wants to save a non-Catholic, what's it to us? He can do as He pleases.

We're Catholic because we know Catholicism is true, that it's the most perfect way to worship God, that that's where His Sacraments are, that if everyone were to be evangelized then we'd have sane, orderly societies based on the True, Good, and Beautiful, etc.

We spread the Gospel because we're commanded to, because it's true, because it's beautiful and brings peace, and because it leads to those aforementioned orderly, sane societies.

But in the end, Christ is King and can save whom He wants.

How are we supposed to evangelize if the Pope is saying stay in your errors....everyone is saved!


I believe Catholicism is the True Faith, but I am beginning to doubt that the Faith is in Rome. 
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#14
(03-19-2016, 05:03 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-19-2016, 04:07 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(03-19-2016, 12:28 PM)austenbosten Wrote: With all due respect Pope Francis....why bother being Catholic then?

:eyeroll:

Ha!  Great question, isn't it?

To whom much is given, much is required.

I think it goes to spiritual pride if one is angered at the idea of God granting His mercy to a benevolent but ignorant person.  The Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard comes to mind. If God wants to save a non-Catholic, what's it to us? He can do as He pleases.

We're Catholic because we know Catholicism is true, that it's the most perfect way to worship God, that that's where His Sacraments are, that if everyone were to be evangelized then we'd have sane, orderly societies based on the True, Good, and Beautiful, etc.

We spread the Gospel because we're commanded to, because it's true, because it's beautiful and brings peace, and because it leads to those aforementioned orderly, sane societies.

But in the end, Christ is King and can save whom He wants.
What? No, we spread the gospel for the salvation of souls, and nothing else. This is secular humanism and contrary to Catholic teaching. What's more, it seems awfully presumptuous and arrogant to claim people can be saved while rejecting the Church and the explicit teaching of Our Lord.

Ecumenical Council of Florence
Quote:It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives

John 3:5
Quote:Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Seems pretty straightforward, doncha think?
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#15
Christ clearly wants all humanity to enter the Church but He can choose to save non Catholics  outside of the normative way which is through the Church and Her Sacraments if He so desires to.

There is nothing wrong with Pope Francis saying that

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#16
Christ saved the Old Testament patriarchs did he not? Last time I checked, they didn't even have a concept of a church much less the sacraments. Christ saved them out of mercy.
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#17
Folks get real, stop doing the Jimmy Akin and attempting to rationalize this.  We know what he means when he says this.  He's not speaking of Baptism of Desire, he's speaking universalism.  This is the same pope who told Tony Palmer not to convert!

Do you really think that pope Francis is saying "strive to find God's Kingdom and love thy neighbor, even if you struggle terribly to believe"  or "Hey just be a nice person, in the end it doesn't matter."


Anyways this is not the first time the Pope has said this.  Remember Scalfari (atheist journalist) is one of his favourite people to interview...oh I know Eugenio is always "mis-translating" Pope Francis.
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#18
(03-19-2016, 05:35 PM)Dominicus Wrote: Christ saved the Old Testament patriarchs did he not? Last time I checked, they didn't even have a concept of a church much less the sacraments. Christ saved them out of mercy.
Christ saved the most faithful people on the planet? People who devoted their entire lives to him? That's not odd or strange or unexpected -- nor is it in any way relevant to what Francis is saying. Not only were they faithful, but they lived before the coming of Christ and the promulgation of the gospel to the entire planet.

Instances of salvation via invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are theologically possible, although not safe, proper or in keeping with Catholicism to speculate on.
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#19
To me, it boils down to this: I am to work out my own salvation in fear and trembling. I am a husband and a father, so I must also do my duty to provide for the material and spiritual development of my family. I am to promote the Catholic Faith according to my state in life in accordance with the Great Commission. We have been commanded to make disciples of all nations and baptize them in the name of the life-giving Trinity. Those are our marching orders. If God decides in his infinite compassion to save some, even many, individuals outside of the ordinary means, or whether he saves exactly none apart from water Baptism, the Great Commission stands, as we have not received any other. Whether any theologian, priest, bishop, or even pope suggests, implies, hints, or flat-out says otherwise does not matter. Each one of us will answer for our fidelity to that Great Commission, as will every person, including wolves disguised as pastors.
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#20
(03-19-2016, 05:26 PM)knish Wrote:
(03-19-2016, 05:03 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: To whom much is given, much is required.

I think it goes to spiritual pride if one is angered at the idea of God granting His mercy to a benevolent but ignorant person.  The Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard comes to mind. If God wants to save a non-Catholic, what's it to us? He can do as He pleases.

We're Catholic because we know Catholicism is true, that it's the most perfect way to worship God, that that's where His Sacraments are, that if everyone were to be evangelized then we'd have sane, orderly societies based on the True, Good, and Beautiful, etc.

We spread the Gospel because we're commanded to, because it's true, because it's beautiful and brings peace, and because it leads to those aforementioned orderly, sane societies.

But in the end, Christ is King and can save whom He wants.
What? No, we spread the gospel for the salvation of souls, and nothing else. This is secular humanism and contrary to Catholic teaching. What's more, it seems awfully presumptuous and arrogant to claim people can be saved while rejecting the Church and the explicit teaching of Our Lord.

(snip)

Obviously we spread the Gospel to save souls. That's one reason (you think there can't be more than one?) why He told us to spread it, and His telling us to spread it, whether it's for the puprpose of saving souls or winning a game of Tiddly-winks, is good enough reason for us to do it. That's my point.

(03-19-2016, 05:26 PM)knish Wrote: John 3:5
Quote:Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Seems pretty straightforward, doncha think?

Sure, sounds that way (why are you Protestant-proof-texting anyway?) But things are more complicated than I think you'd like.  I agree with Abp. Lefebvre:


Archbishop Lefebvre, "Open Letter to Confused Catholics":


"We must say it clearly: such a concept is radically opposed to Catholic dogma. The Church is the one ark of salvation, and we must not be afraid to affirm it. You have often heard it said, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"--a dictum which offends contemporary minds. It is easy to believe that this doctrine is no longer in effect, that it has been dropped. It seems excessively severe.

Yet nothing, in fact, has changed; nothing can be changed in this area. Our Lord did not found a number of churches: He founded only One. There is only one Cross by which we can be saved, and that Cross has been given to the Catholic Church. It has not been given to others. To His Church, His mystical bride, Christ has given all graces. No grace in the world, no grace in the history of humanity is distributed except through her.

Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian's formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.”

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God. As priests we must state the truth."


Archbishop Lefebvre, "Against the Heresies," pages 216-217, on Proposition #16 of the Syllabus of Errors, in which Pope Pius IX condemned the following statement: "Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation":

"Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion. There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God — God in so far as these people can conceive Him — and who want to accomplish His will. There certainly are not many such persons, because these people, not being baptized, suffer more than Christians the effects of original sin. But some of these persons make an act of love, which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire. It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved. Implicit baptism means the Church: by the very fact that baptism of desire is found implicitly in their act of charity and submission to God these persons belong to the Church. They are saved by the Church, by Our Lord Jesus Christ. For there is baptism of water, baptism of blood, baptism of desire (that of catechumens), then baptism of implicit desire, which is contained in an act of true love of God. How many are saved by this form of baptism? God alone knows. It is a great mystery for us. One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions, but if he is saved, it is always by his attachment to the mystical body which is the Catholic Church, even if the persons concerned do not know it."



And obviously what I said had nothing to do with "secular humanism" given that I was talking about the importance of spreading the Gospel, of having societies ordered around Church teaching, etc. That's pretty much the very opposite of secular humanism. As opposite as it gets.

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